Archived messages from: gitter.im/red/audio from year: 2019

greggirwin
22:04We do have this room. No idea why Gitter wasn't showing it to me.
rebolek
22:05@greggirwin You should use Red-based reliable tools instead of web stuff :smirk:
greggirwin
22:05Agreed.
BeardPower
22:06I totally forgot about it!
22:07So the first step would be a PoC running on Windows?
rebolek
22:08audio:// ?
BeardPower
22:08Using the new 
port!
type?
rebolek
22:09Yes, but it needs to be done at R/S level.
BeardPower
22:09Challenge accepted?
rebolek
22:11I'm not going to investigate Windows solution, as I have no Win machine, but certainly would look into Linux and macOS.
BeardPower
22:14I did a little of R&D about it: https://github.com/red/red/wiki/%5BDOC%5D-Audio-R&D
22:17It should not be that hard to implement a PoC.
22:19I will look into it over the weekend.
rebolek
22:21@BeardPower I would start with something simpler IMO. I have sound/musical background so mono&stereo is enough for me most of the time. 3D audio is nice, but not always necessary.
BeardPower
22:22@rebolek Yes. The POC would be a "sine wave hello world" one.
22:233D audio is mainly used in games, yes.
rebolek
22:24"sine wave hello world" exactly

BeardPower
15:39I looked a little into the Red/System sources. Everything for OLE is there, which is great.
Now we need to decide what we should use:
XAudio2, Core Audio (WASAPI etc.) or ASIO? * not to mix Core Audio with the macOS CoreAudio.
XAudio2 is on top of Core Audio and support DSP effects and all the fancy stuff. It's higher latency than Core Audio but it's still low latency.
Core Audio is the lowest hardware interface giving you the lowest latency possible but it's more complicated to code with. It's used for pro audio software.
ASIO is a driver interface developed by Steinberg. It needs its own driver but is independent to the Windows drivers. It also offers lowest-latency and is used for pro audio software. Its licensed by Steinberg.
15:41Core Audio is the equivalent to Pulse Audio and Jack on Linux and CoreAudio on macOS.
rebolek
18:18I've been looking at Pulse Audio and playing a sample in C looks really easy, so R/S should be at home there.

At first, I would prefer most direct access to HW, so no DSP stuff, this can be done in R/S. So Core Audio, CoreAudio and Pulse Audio.
BeardPower
19:44Most direct access to HW: assembler ;-)
19:45Where are my SID chips :-)
rebolek
20:24Yeah, I meant most direct at OS level of course :-)
20:24My SID chip is patiently waiting for some additional hardware and lot of time ;)

topcheese
10:09Hi, I was thinking about using Csound and possibly Vamp, but Superpowered looks really nice. It would be nice to build some type of pluggable backend that supports things like VST, LV2, and Vamp. It looks we have a way to go before we get there. https://www.vamp-plugins.org/
10:49There doesn't seem to be a lot of documentation and tutorials floating around for Superpowered. I'm still leaning towards Csound. I don't have a good feeling about it because of unanswered questions like this one. https://stackoverflow.com/questions/54456092/how-to-download-superpowered-sdk
10:58I also see that Racket has a Csound binding. Perhaps Red should also have one? https://github.com/aqui18/racket-csound
rebolek
11:04If someone’s willing to write it, then why not :smile:
11:06Docs look nice https://csound.com/docs/api/csound_8h.html
topcheese
11:15I'm not sure people would want me to write it, but it'll take me some time. I'm still trying to read up and practice as much as I can on Red. I'm still not even sure if I can call the executable, or if I can load the DLL. I've been bouncing back and forth between the Rebol and Red docs.
11:17I like it because it's easy and simple like Red, plus it's fully backwards compatible with code from the 80's, so there's plenty of useful documentation out there that's still good. Kind of like with Rebol. ;-)
rebolek
11:23You can do both, call executable and/or load DLL.
Oldes
14:56I quite cannot imagine how you could connect Red with Csound. But can imagine use something like Soundpipe https://github.com/PaulBatchelor/Soundpipe
15:01Being able to compile the Csound code using its api [csoundCompile ](https://csound.com/docs/api/group___p_e_r_f_o_r_m_a_n_c_e.html#ga92c741a482b072bc503f790bf0824dad) should be quite trivial. If there is 32bit Csound dll available.
15:10@topcheese The hardest part of such a tasks is to define, how the (usage) code should look like.
15:11You would like to be able have Red code like this one for Python? https://csound.com/docs/ctcsound/ctcsound-API.html#introduction
topcheese
15:16Soundpipe looks good. Yeah it seems you have to build your own 32 bit version with Csound.
15:27@Oldes I'm pretty sure that's ultimately the route I'd like to go. I just started looking at all of this in the last few days, so I haven't had time to figure it all out yet. I also just found Csound about a couple weeks ago and started to learn that. I was using a tool called Cabbage to develop some audio plugins, but then I ran into Red. So I'm not really sure what would be the best way to integrate it with Csound. There are so many ways to do it? Thanks for the input!
15:29Most people use haskell or python with Csound. It just seems Red would be a better choice.
15:32Then we could use Red to build something like this for Csound. https://blue.kunstmusik.com/
Oldes
15:34I may give it a try... one day.
topcheese
15:35is that a challenge accepted? hahaha
Oldes
15:35At least the Red/System part.
topcheese
15:35We'll get there some day.
15:49Yeah it looks like the same thing can be done with Sporth/Soundpipe
BeardPower
19:26A tracker is cooler ;-)
rebolek
20:43tracker is very limited
Oldes
22:41Ok... I'm playing with the Soundpipe... it looks its just a set of various "modules" which take some input and produce output and or just generate some output. All modules are described in lua code like this oscillator: https://github.com/PaulBatchelor/Soundpipe/blob/master/modules/data/blsaw.lua

The question is, how you would imagine the Red code should look like?
22:43That is probably question for @rebolek as he is writing own synth. ;-)

topcheese
00:05That's great to know he's writing one. I was just about to start to start writing one, but got side-tracked by Red. I never got into lua, and I figured Red could some day replace an obscure scripting language called GDScript in the Godot game engine. I had just recently started using that for cross platform games and applications. I think LibRed will come in handy for that. https://docs.godotengine.org/en/3.0/getting_started/scripting/gdscript/gdscript_basics.html

topcheese
02:47Although I found a few more that look like a better fit for Red. https://github.com/dr-soft/miniaudio
02:48https://github.com/jarikomppa/soloud
02:48http://libsound.io/
02:49http://www.attr-x.net/yse/
02:50I'm leaning towards MiniAudio.
02:58Actually I like them all, but I guess I wouldn't know which would be better.
Oldes
08:00Thanks for links.. libsound.io and miniaudio are new to me.. will have to check them.
BeardPower
09:11Great links. Now I'm used to Red, looking at the C/C++ code makes my eyes hurt.
topcheese
12:45Yes they remind me of why I always went for the higher level languages. I've used so many different flavors and dialects, and it's become like fake news to me. Even then I would start to learn it then find something better and move on. I find that Red seems deceptively simple, yet it feels like it's potentially one of the most powerful languages I've ever run across. Red has warts and all, but Red/Rebol seem to be the real deal. I trust all the people smarter than I am that still believe and support it, otherwise you all wouldn't be wasting your time and effort. I could be wrong. :-)
12:53I did play around the RGB to use on miniaudio, but I couldn't get the example dll to build. I don't see to get any errors, but I was thinking that's one more thing I'll have to learn to use. https://github.com/Pebaz/RGB
9214
13:03@topcheese and where Red has warts, exactly?
topcheese
15:10@9214 So we want to go down that road do we? Why so you can perhaps brand me as a hater? I think you know the warts, and a quick Internet search reveals that. I've read the excuses why the software is still at an alpha stage, and they all seem reasonable, but that doesn't stop it from being alpha software ... which that in and of itself denotes warts does it not? Trust me in that you 're in a better position to see any warts in the project. I also look at projects like Jetbrains mps even though it's not fair to compare them, but it seems Red has a way to go before it gets to that level. I found Jetbrains through a Red/Rebol link, and even though it looked all snazzy I still thought Red was more powerful. A wart is a wart, but warts are superficial and can be cured. Just remember that. ;-)
15:18Where's my package manager? Just kidding!
15:25Other than that I can understand your concern because I think the project is pretty tight. Every project out there has its warts, and Red is no different. I've heard rumors that the projects not that open, but so far it seems pretty open considering it's still at an alpha stage. I can understand wanting to keep the source reserved to the most experienced developers. I was more or less speaking in general, but you don't see that stopping me from coming back. :-)

greggirwin
02:00> but that doesn't stop it from being alpha software ... which that in and of itself denotes warts does it not?

@topcheese there's a big difference between language design warts and implementation warts, or warts we'll grow out of. Of course, more warts can appear as well. And things we sometimes view as warts are intentional, and part of a language's design. There is no such thing as perfect, just different choices.
Oldes
12:36I was playing with miniaudio and I'm quite not sure if it is the right way for Red... even the simple_enumeration example which does nothing more than prints out available in/out devices produces exe which has 200kB striped, which is quite a lot, when it could just call OS to get such an info.
12:39Anyway... I don't know if Red has warts or not, but it does not have a port specification, which is quite important for real use. If you don't want to just play samples, which is possible with several other libs, which are in red/code repository.
12:40Another problem with miniaudio is, that it is just a single header file, co you would have to first make a shared library from it to be usable with Red.
15:48Looks like libsoundio is better... shared library (with WASAPI backend) is 100kB and example listing devices (with quite a lot details) is 18kB.
topcheese
19:15@Oldes , They recently released 2.0 and use the MIT license. It looks really nice and thanks for checking it out. I don't have any real preference, but I would like to use Red to write a simple game, so it's nice to know my options.