Archived messages from: gitter.im/red/blockchain from year: 2017

x8x
16:20first! :smile:
OneArb
dockimbel
16:22Hehe, no token awarded for being first. :-P
OneArb
16:24Was I spot dead bringing up blockchain as optimal eco-system for Red?
pekr
16:25Can't envision, what blockchains are good except for the mining of crypto currencies, but is my guess correct, that those concepts are mainly about distributed computing? So later in the future we can envision Rebol/IOS like or next gen torrent environments, along with micro apps?
OneArb
16:26I spent the last year and half investing in crypto, there is a lot more than meet the eye
16:27Blockchain is mainly about trust, transaction, undisputable
9214
16:28I probably need some time to digest (and re-read) everything I read, basically because I never got the hype around crypto and blockchains, don't really understand their model and how Red can benefit from that. You may say that I'm actually the one who slept in Arctica :zzz:

But, if Red team and our community can benefit from such move and gain a solid ground, I'm all in. I love X Internet idea, and ideas about community management and our own currency are really interesting. Still, most of this stuff sounds rather controversal for an uninitiated in blockchains and such. Guess I'll wait for the white paper?
ghost~5680c5f416b6c7089cc058a5
16:29> ... we hope to hire the best profiles from the Red community

Ah! Red's development is going to get faster. Yay! :smile:
dockimbel
16:30> Was I spot dead bringing up blockchain as optimal eco-system for Red?

Yes!
OneArb
16:30@9214 I can spend all night explaining why. It's all about trusted transactions.
9214
16:31I would actually appreciate if someone put a link to an article/post/talk/whatever that clearly explains:
* blockchain model
* how Red (team/community) can benefit from that
* why I should care
OneArb
16:32Is the whitepaper out or did I miss the link?
dockimbel
16:32@pekr The mining is just a small part of some blockchains. The interesting parts are in blockchains supporting smart contracts (so, not Bitcoin chain).
ghost~5680c5f416b6c7089cc058a5
16:33@OneArb
> We will release it publicly in a few days.
dockimbel
16:33> I spent the last year and half investing in crypto, there is a lot more than meet the eye

Precisely, there is a speculative fog blinding most people from seeing the real tech value behind.
9214
16:34> here is a speculative fog blinding most people from seeing the real tech value behind

ditto
OneArb
16:34@dockimbel The funny thing, is that I set myself a deadline to open up a roadmap for Red within the blockchain space, so we've now got two projects!
dockimbel
16:34> I probably need some time to digest (and re-read) everything I read, basically because I never got the hype around crypto and blockchains, don't really understand their model and how Red can benefit from that.

That is not a simple topic indeed, it takes some time to understand the value of those new systems.
onetom
16:35@pekr this was quite a good talk regarding "what blockchains are good for":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMEOKDVXlUo
OneArb
16:35I can say that even if reading everything about crypto for an entire year, I did not get it until a couple of years
dockimbel
16:35@OneArb I need to update the whitepaper with latest data, so it should be available maybe tomorrow, or in a couple of days.
OneArb
16:36Red roadmap and mine may join. The basic benefit for the community is to get rewarded on the basis of actual contribution.
dockimbel
16:37The hard part in blockchains is that there are many different kinds, with different capabilities. It takes time to get to know the main parts of that ecosystem.
OneArb
16:37The key factor is that coin buyers purchase expectation, because future promise about blockchain technology is so vast as it can / will pervade just about every business endeavor.
dockimbel
16:38@OneArb
> Red roadmap and mine may join. The basic benefit for the community is to get rewarded on the basis of actual contribution.

Yes, and voting rights. But we want to extend the token usage, so we are open to new ideas.
OneArb
16:38Nenad, not that many, it's mostly Bitcoin Core clones, Ethereum and a few new ones with more potential in my view
16:40I came to Rebol / Red because I view DSL as key in developing stakeholder driven application. Everyone promise it, but who has coded ways to deliver the promise?
16:50@dockimbel
> Red roadmap and mine may join. The basic benefit for the community is to get rewarded on the basis of actual contribution.

The token needs a use / service besides contribution record keeping otherwise it will be requalified as a security within the US, which would affect US investors.
9214
16:56@dockimbel since you researched the topic all the past year, I think it might be worth to put a list of articles/post and such for whose who want to research the topic themselves
pekr
9214
16:57because, to put it simply, I can't accept what I don't understand, and I don't really get most part of announcement, specifically how you (as an organization),we (as a community) and Red (as a technology) can benefit from that
onetom
17:00@9214 @pekr i think this is quite a good intro into ethereum specifically:
https://medium.com/@mattcondon/getting-up-to-speed-on-ethereum-63ed28821bbe
9214
17:00and from my point of view most part of the discussion in this room (no offense to anyone, I'm just dumb and skeptical :D) is some buzzwords and hand waving
17:02@onetom thanks, that's at least something I can put my hands on
OneArb
17:02@9214 The basis of a Red token is to pay for development. Is it an acceptable basis?
17:03@9214 I have proposed a very practical blockchain roadmap: integrate Red REPL to the Bitcoin Core wallet
9214
17:04@OneArb you mean basis for community growing? I can answer this question only after I see the consequences.
17:04because it seems we're pioneers in this realms
OneArb
17:05 @9214 More practical: get paid for code the community approves to integrate within Red code base. Is it not what everyone wishes for here?
9214
17:06@OneArb well, that part makes personal sense to me
OneArb
17:10@9214 My own roadmap consists of reward being paid - yes in coin, but you can cash now - for each single line of code that makes it to the code base.
17:10I do not see why people should contribute for free, do you?
maximvl
9214
17:11@OneArb it's not about your roadmap, but Red's one, isn't it?
17:12> I do not see why people should contribute for free

because they care?
dockimbel
17:12@9214
> because, to put it simply, I can't accept what I don't understand, and I don't really get most part of announcement, specifically how you (as an organization),we (as a community) and Red (as a technology) can benefit from that

That is understandable. As a start, please follow the links I have included about some keywords. We can gather in a wiki page all the best resources for learning more quickly about it. Though, some concepts I have learned only by exchanging with others, as the existing docs are not always clear, or too technical, not giving the big picture. Take all this as an opportunity to learn about the tech and concepts behind blockchains, just forget about pure cryptocurrencies and the speculation craziness.
OneArb
17:13By the way how to access the published material?
17:15@9214 my roadmap is that Red is superior to the script language underlying blockchain technology. I have a specific practical to make that happen.
onetom
17:15I was also astonished to see that there is no good source of information about getting into this whole blockchain world.
even for just ethereum there are no good sources.
they are either already obsolete or assume that the audience is not too technical, etc etc
OneArb
17:17@9214 Caring gifting is wonderful. I would prefer people to develop full time or to the maximum of they wish and are able to for Red. My concern is that by the time Red get ready the blockchain window of opportunity will be closed. Blockchain is were funding is.
dockimbel
17:18The link posted above by Tamas is one of the best learning resource for Ethereum and smart contracts basic concepts.
9214
17:18indeed, already watching some videos
17:18what worries me is that this move is a risky bet on a future
onetom
17:19i haven't watched these personally but my ex-colleague said they are quite good tutorials:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsVoOobxAQL6NbWY2t6E6Sg/playlists
OneArb
17:19@onetom 95% of what you can read is ... incomplete.
pekr
17:19@dockimbel I hope my sincere worries are highly unfounded? I can "feel", there is some big picture and importantce to become part of the future bandwagon, but what I also worry is, that ppl were expecting 0.6.4, Android release, some IO release or even behind the scenes of compiler rewrite so almost 1.0. Do you e.g. remember, what happened during the REBOL/IOS era? The main toolchain did not see any release for 18 months. I know that you guys are doing the best to actually make Red grow, not the opposite, so I just hope the plan works :-)
OneArb
17:19@onetom Read this from one of the prominent early developers: https://github.com/bitcoinbook/bitcoinbook
BlackATTR_twitter
17:19I don't know much about blockchain, but I still believe that this may be smart direction for Red.
pekr
17:20A naive novice question - should I buy few powerful gfx cards to mine Red coin? :-)
BlackATTR_twitter
17:21Most of the marketplaces for Red technology are mature / late-stage and have many large competitors.
17:22Blockchain is an emerging tech space which the playing field will be more favorable for adoption of Red.
OneArb
17:22@BlackATTR_twitter Can you please qualify and give example? Do you view Solidity as late-stage?
x8x
17:23Here is a good video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSRN8PUhHX0
9214
17:23https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBC-nXj3Ng4
onetom
17:23@pekr or rather look for ways to buy some ether first, so you can buy and sell Red coins.
the https://metamask.io/ plugin allows ppl to buy from the plugin but it only works in certain countries
BlackATTR_twitter
17:24@OneArb I'm not saying there are no players/leaders in blockchain, I am only saying that it's more favorable relative to Red's position in other tech market spaces.
17:24And due to this, the unique properties of Red (full stack, compact, simplicity) are amplified.
pekr
17:26Eager to see, how the C3 dialect looks like ....
BlackATTR_twitter
17:27"In a fight between a bear and an alligator, it is the terrain which determines the winner." Doc just chose a better terrain.
OneArb
17:27@pekr I believe Red can adopt an eco-friendly technology such as BURST. Few people realize a single Bitcoin transaction consumes 263 KWh - https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption
onetom
17:28@9214 and why is that video specifically good?
the video i quoted earlier is a talk given by a long time bitcoin expert, Andreas Antonopoulos,
who was interviewed by the Canadian Senate:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUNGFZDO8mM
and also by a similar governmental institution in new zealand iirc
OneArb
17:29@BlackATTR_twitter I happen to have identified Red as a possible top contender as blockchain scripting language. Perhaps are we saying the same thing in different ways?
onetom
17:31@OneArb also few ppl realize that it's not a requirement that so much energy being consumed for a transaction; it's just happens to be that many participants are interested in keeping the system alive.

also how would you compare it with the cost of a regular bank transaction?
it consumes electricity even when you are not transacting, because the banks are paying for heating or cooling the bank buildings, keeping the ATMs online, etc etc

plus let's not only care about bitcoin, but ethereum too.
what's that figure for ethereum?
BlackATTR_twitter
17:33@OneArb Sounds like it. I was applauding the decision for a small innovative tech company (Fullstack) to get into an emerging market rather than playing catch-up in more mature markets (e.g., cloud, mobile).
dockimbel
17:35@onetom I realize that maybe one useful first investment to do, would be to have some knowledgeable people put together some good docs about blockchains, smart contracts and Dapps. The learning curve is rather steep currently, and building a proper mental model of all that takes a while. It all looks obvious to me now, but that was not the case at the beginning, many aspects seemed fuzzy and not making sense.
onetom
17:38@dockimbel i completely agree, but i still don't have a clear idea how to organize all this information...
although i still find https://www.notion.so/ the best collaborative organization tool (for smaller teams)
OneArb
17:39@onetom I have not stumbled about Ethereum Energy consumption. Eco-friendly blockchain is the next step taken by BURST (Proof of Capacity) IOTA directed acyclic graph - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IOTA_(technology).
17:41> @OneArb also few ppl realize that it's not a requirement that so much energy being consumed for a transaction; it's just happens to be that many participants are interested in keeping the system alive.

A high hash rate is promoted by Bitcoin devs as a security feature. This is the main reason, in my view, of Bitcoin popularity as a safe haven.
onetom
17:41btw, if anyone interested this is the journal of my journey in blockchain land since i've joined the https://oax.org project:
https://www.notion.so/oax/Journals-a1c1a14d8aa84fceb648a33ad8211791
you can see i had to go through immense amount of info.
it is also a documentation of how my ex-colleague - who didn't have any prior blockchain experience - was getting into ethereum, so many of the links came from him actually.
OneArb
17:44@BlackATTR_twitter Red RAD capability are in my view a key feature. I support want a two-prong strategy, develop and stabilize Red but also use Red in real blockchain projects delivering features people can use. User experience is an area rippled with opportunities in this space.
9214
17:45@onetom

> and why is that video specifically good?

because it teaches stuff the best way - by convincing to implement whole thing yourself... with pencil and paper :D
onetom
17:45@OneArb I just had a discussion with one of the 2 Solidity core developers (https://github.com/axic) the other day about iota and he was not very pleased with it.
he said iota implemented everything in a custom way, not using standard hashing and other crypto algos and the heart of their solution which ensures that the system converges towards a canonical state is rather unclear
OneArb
17:48@dockimbel If I can be direct about Ethereum: I have yet for anyone to explain to me the benefit of running smart contracts on miner's computers, whereas all is needed is to get a consensus on computed I/O. Red can shine in the area of pushing code and running code runtime.
17:51@onetom IOTA is much younger than Ethereum and DAGs have other contenders as well. I support Red remaining code base agnostic. I hope Red can remain neutral considering the risk of betting on even today's leader. No one during the Internet boom could tell which technology would prevail, remember Netscape?
onetom
17:51@OneArb
> running smart contracts on miner's computers

every regular ethereum node is running the smart contracts, not just the miners, so im not sure what do you mean
OneArb
17:55@onetom That's an area I'd need to explore more. is the code not executed by the miners in return for gas fees? Runtime is validated / executed by the distributed party?
onetom
17:56@Oldes :wave: Machniarium, ftw!
OneArb
onetom
18:00@OneArb the code is executed by the miners, but non-miner nodes execute it too, so they can calculate the aggregate state of the chain.
OneArb
18:05> I have heard so many views from devs in this space that I have resolved to only take into account fact based information. "pleased", "unclear", "standard" are terms I remove from my stack.

Red is an undiscovered gem I suggest addresses the entire blockchain space rather than supporting a single code base. All Distributed Ledger Technology needs / uses some type of scripting. Red can become a kingpin in crypto space.
18:08@onetom My exact point. CryptoKitties slow down the Ethereum network. No one has yet demonstrated how running code on miner's equipment is optimal to only verifying I/O
planetsizecpu
18:12While I am triying to understand what blockchains imply to red community, (despite I understand it is important to be in the leading wagon) I feel a bit lost in the sense I and some of us are looking forward to do things what need I/O, such database apps, android etc. After the announcement I feel that target a bit far than before. I strongly believe the red team know what is better for red language, and I hope that matches what is better for red community plans. So, go te better way, but please go as fast as possible, we really need red 1.0
KimRoach143_twitter
18:13@dockimbel If I understood it correctly let me know, We as a community create new cryptocurrency. Invest money using bitcoin or ethereum or other altcoins basically [ crowdfunding/sales ] , Company will give backers ICO [like IPO] during first offering. Using smart contract system giving credits and coins to community member who code or represent us.
onetom
18:28@planetsizecpu talking to blockchains need I/O too, so this Red/C3 project just makes it even more important to get that done
planetsizecpu
18:34@onetom I just mean that 1.0 is the main target, time is important factor, more if releases are slowing.
dockimbel
18:35@planetsizecpu The delay for the Red/Core roadmap should be about a month more from now. Though, some work for full I/O is already done by qtxie. There is nothing I desire more than advancing faster on the Red/Core roadmap, though, we also need funding in order to achieve that, and a big enough market where Red can grow up.
18:36@KimRoach143_twitter The RCT token is already coded by us and will be sold partially, during the ICO and some parts will be distributed through the foundation to the community.
maximvl
18:37Red goes blockchain, Red/Core goes delayed :D
dockimbel
18:37@maximvl Just for the time needed for ICO preparation.
maximvl
18:37anyway, what should one read to understand the whole blockchain thing?
9214
18:38@maximvl start with links in Nenad's article and proceed to https://medium.com/@mattcondon/getting-up-to-speed-on-ethereum-63ed28821bbe
onetom
18:38might be delayed, but not indefinitely!
while without funding....
planetsizecpu
18:40@dockimbel I understand that, just worry about 1.0 release date, I understand that date a very important day for us, much more, like a roll-out event, in wich we feel involved in some way, and very proud to be in.
onetom
18:42Also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merkle_tree is a really foundational concept in the blockchain world
maximvl
18:42thanks
OneArb
18:43@KimRoach143_twitter Most likely people who already have contributed would receive some free or discounted coins based on their previous contributions.
maximvl
18:43one more thing I don't get is Red is going to be used to make better tooling for Etherium, but what about this ICO? what kinds of coins are they? are they part of Etherium or a brand new stuff?
dockimbel
18:43@maximvl You don't need to understand it all, just the basic concepts of what a blockchain is, where the value lies, and same things for smart contracts and Dapps.
onetom
18:43Vitalik goes as far as deeply bowing on stage when Merkle's name come up; it's that important of an underpinning for all things blockchain
maximvl
18:44@dockimbel I don't need, but I want to :D
dockimbel
18:44@OneArb We plan a free distribution for past contributors.
pekr
18:45Who is Joe Armstrong? Was it negative tweet on his part, re Red & the blockchain?
dockimbel
18:45@maximvl The doc above should explain that. ICO are based on tokens, which are coded as smart contracts on a blockchain (usually Ethereum), following the ERC20 standard (just an API spec actually).
maximvl
18:46@pekr Joe is the creator of Erlang
18:46(at least)
pekr
18:46eh, I thought so, but was not sure ...
dockimbel
18:47@pekr Which negative tweet?
OneArb
18:47@planetsizecpu One solution would be to offer the opportunity for pre ICO funding in order to get funds right away and keep the development track targets. Is adding an additional dev and managing an ICO feasable and desirable?
18:48@dockimbel Including Carl - just curious
pekr
18:49@dockimbel sorry if I misunderstood - https://mobile.twitter.com/joeerl/status/945347599908966402
maximvl
18:49@dockimbel I understand pretty much nothing from your comment :D
9214
18:50shitstorms are brewing! https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16005128
maximvl
18:50@pekr I don't see much negativity, probably he thought about mining or something
dockimbel
18:52Well, I was aware that such move would upset some people, given the current state of the crypto world.
pekr
18:53@maximvl - yes, in general, even in our local press, there start to be articles mentioning terrawatts of "wasted" energy by crypto miners ...
KimRoach143_twitter
18:53yes like china blocked bitcoin I red somewhere
9214
18:53@maximvl "what you should by yourself is... another pair of RCTs" :D
pekr
18:54Here's what Ladislav (old Rebol guru community member) replied to me on Altme, re my remark, that Bitcoin's value is just - virtual:

"Pekr: "even if virtual" - bitcoins are no more "virtual" than any registered security in Czech Republic. In CZ, a registered security exists only as an entry in the "Central registry of securities". In the same manner, every bitcoin exists only as an entry (unspent output of a transaction) in the blockchain, i.e. the blockchain plays the same role for bitcoins as the database of the Central registry of securites does for securities in CZ. Nobody calls the registered securities "virtual", even though they exist only as records in the registry database. In the same manner, it does not make sense to call bitcoins "virtual". There is yet another way how to call something "virtual" - games simulating economic activities (like the Monopoly game) are called "virtual economies". Virtual economies have virtual products, virtual commodities and virtual money used to transact in the simulation. There is a significant difference between virtual products/money and real products/money, though. Virtual products/money are meant to be used in their corresponding virtual economy, while real products are meant to be used in the real world. Since bitcoins are designed to be used/usable in the real world, they are no more virtual than the registered securities in CZ."
maximvl
18:55@9214 what's RTC?
pekr
18:56His answer lead me to the conclusion, that I know simply nothing about the topic. After recent Red's announcement, the feeling is even stronger :-) It will take some time to study materials to understand, how all that works ...
KimRoach143_twitter
18:57@maximvl Red community 2.0: RCT token. http://www.red-lang.org/2017/12/leaping-into-future-red-goes-blockchain.html scroll down few blocks
18:58Red community Token
9214
19:00@maximvl "so... you're saying that buying this tokens just in the right order... explosion happens?"
19:00"R is for Red... C is for Community" xD
19:00jeez
maximvl
KimRoach143_twitter
19:08simple explanation of smart contract its like trigger in database when certain task is completed and marked as done it fires can be implicit or explicit. Token from one account goes to the account another account as part of payment. means when contracts are completed from account of company people who worked for contract (in this case in their account) will receive token as payment.
9214
19:10does anyone feels some sense of "tribalism" coming from the idea of our own community currency?
19:12I mean, I think it will make us more united, not just a bunch of random people
19:12like a little society
KimRoach143_twitter
19:12you mean mass societies 😂
9214
19:12Hivemind..? :bee:
KimRoach143_twitter
19:13Where is queen 👸 🐝 ?
9214
19:13@KimRoach143_twitter there's actually no queen in a hivemind (as I see it at least :D)
KimRoach143_twitter
19:14yey cool how about distributed hive mind thinking 🤔 💭
OneArb
19:31@pekr The bottom line is that people use an ultra slow database which is duplicated many times for extra safety and pay gazilions for the privilege :)

Bitcoin 7 transactions per seconds and Ethereum not that far.

Now the fluff is down, capable programmers, err you're called a dev in crypto-space can make a killing in a lifetime opportunity!
mikeparr
19:38@dockimbel Very very minor typo in Red-Blockchain article: shear should be sheer, imho.
maximvl
19:54@onetom thanks for the video in Canada senate
19:55just finished watching it, so many insights
9214
19:57 yes, *very* good speaker
maximvl
20:00https://i.imgur.com/2IyvQVt.png
9214
20:01@maximvl guy who breathes through the crab :eyes:
OneArb
20:54@onetom Is there anything I can read demonstrating the benefit of validating / processing smart contracts on miner's computer vs. the contractees processing local then validating I/O agreement on the blockchain?

Is this implementation just a mean to fund the eco-system through gas or are there other benefits?
maximvl
22:07ok, well, after digesting all the information I'm quite excited to see how it will work out, hopefully this new aspect will push Red/Core development as well and bring more people and most important more contributors to the community with the Red coins, so yeah
22:07I'm still waiting for IO and GC to use Red for something more than pet projects
9214
22:08@maximvl blockchain requires I/O, so chosen direction might speed things up a little
KimRoach143_twitter
22:08It will also require GC so win win
pekr
22:09There's some work being done on IO. You can look at qtxie's evbranch ...
rebolek
22:09It should also require 64bit, native toolchain and Linux GUI ;)
KimRoach143_twitter
22:10@rebolek right on point 😉
pekr
22:10Weren't we supposed to actually get more than one surprises? :-)
9214
22:10@rebolek that's the spirit :+1:
KimRoach143_twitter
22:11@pekr may be but I think not on same day 😂
9214
22:11guess what I just remembered with all that blockchain stuff?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nob0wutM-Xo
maximvl
22:11@pekr i feel like Etherium tooling and Red coins are two separate news
BeardPower
22:34So it's really time to create my trading software in Red. Unfortunately no full I/O 😉
22:37It's really a problem, users just think of mining and speculation, when it comes to blockchains, because they only read about the application of a cryptocurrency. There are already some 2nd and 3rd generation blockchains, which don't support mining, have fast and free transactions.
22:44An ICO could be a great way for funding, but I think the surface of potential "investors" would be way smaller than other ICOs, because of the (non)speculative nature. Regarding community tokens: isn't there a risk of a party, which has the most bying power, dictating the route of the project? Projects/features, users want to see to be released, can be supported/bought with these coins?
KimRoach143_twitter
22:44@BeardPower Not everyone keep their feet on track :😉
x8x
22:44Any thoughts on Hashgraph anyone?
KimRoach143_twitter
22:46@BeardPower they can divide ICO in smaller chunk I guess like micro venture instead of selling $1000 per unit they can sell $100 per unit and thus involving more people on table with voting rights
BeardPower
22:54@KimRoach143_twitter Tracks are not always layed down on easy terrain. Sure, the investments could be smaller junks, but that does not solve the problem of some single entity using some stooges to buy some voting power.

OneArb
02:43@BeardPower
> Regarding community tokens: isn't there a risk of a party, which has the most buying power, dictating the route of the project? Projects/features, users want to see to be released, can be supported/bought with these coins?

Ethereum Foundation went as far as
forking Ethereum blockchain
to bail out the DAO startup
when a "hacker" used
a Solidity known flaw
ignored by the team
to siphon out millions of dollars

Unmutable record keeping minds
continue use Ethereum Classis ETC
qtxie
02:44I think the ICO will of course speed up Red/Core development, as it's the foundation of the Red/C3 toolchain. We have to speed up Red itself in order to delivery Red/C3 in time.
02:53Regarding RCT, one of its usage is to incentivise the Red developers. For example, imaging we have a document/blog site like [Steemit](https://steemit.com), users who write valuable articles will get RCTs.
Or a Red package site, developers who write good packages/modules will also get RCTs.
OneArb
02:53@BeardPower
> So it's really time to create my trading software in Red. Unfortunately no full I/O 😉
What I/O does your trading software need?
qtxie
02:54@OneArb @BeardPower I'm working on it. ;-)
OneArb
02:55@qtxie the I/O? LibRed with C/C++ is also an option?
qtxie
02:55Yes. The full I/O.
dockimbel
02:56@BeardPower
> Regarding community tokens: isn't there a risk of a party, which has the most bying power, dictating the route of the project? Projects/features, users want to see to be released, can be supported/bought with these coins?

The foundation will set up voting rules that will prevent such things to happen, or at least diminish it. For example, the voting power could be a log() function of your RCT amounts.
OneArb
02:59@dockimbel I support Red to dogfood all the "can" :) do into code. Immutable voting rules will draw attention to Red beyond the language. Governance is a single project point of failure.
03:01Look into Decreed for a blockchain focusing on governance. They are long term players into quality code.
03:11@qtxie My concern over what I have read on the ICO, is the tight branding with Ethereum, if RCT logo is meaningful.

ERC20 investor user experience limits the marketability of the token. Short of getting listed on the exchanges, quite hard as they are overstretched and oversollicited, who do you reckon will contributors sell RCT to and on which venue?
qtxie
03:24@OneArb It hard to say. Anyway there is no doubt that we should make Red 1.0 ASAP. :sunglasses:
OneArb
03:45@qtxie I'd like to ask you a single critical question about Red at this crossroad.

Let's say the ICO process brings in 10 000 000. How many additional developers do you estimate can Red hire to contribute in an efficient manner?
onetom
06:18@9214 hey, im just going through the Ever wonder how Bitcoin (and other cryptocurrencies) actually work-bBC-nXj3Ng4.mp4 video and
indeed it is a great intro to crypto foundations of blockchains with very clear illustrations.
do you know if there are followup videos on those topics they mentioned being not covered:
• Merkle trees
• Alternatives to proof of work
• Scripting
...?
BeardPower
08:23@OneArb I would need udp, tcp, raw, tls and websockets. My ambitious goal is a multi asset trading software with unique features and using specific tcp protocols.
OneArb
08:32@BeardPower Most exchange APIs I looked provide http get, do you mean stock, bond, futures, etc.
BeardPower
08:33@dockimbel Agreed. I think completely preventing it, is not possible. Really looking forward to it and the outcome of this journey 👍
dsgeyser
09:28Found this about NEO:

https://thenextweb.com/contributors/2017/08/17/heres-neo-plans-top-ethereum-bitcoin/

Any plans to run a private NEO blockchain?

mikeparr
09:39UK Guardian article - I found it interesting: "Is Blockchain the most important IT invention of our age? "
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/24/blockchain-bitcoin-technology-most-important-tech-invention-of-our-age-sir-mark-walport
dockimbel
09:45@OneArb We plan to split the work in several teams, one would be on /Core, one on /View, one on /C3, another one writing unit tests across all parts. I haven't yet made details plan for that, but about 5-10 extra devs would suffice (more 5 than 10). One of the goal is to free my and Qingtian's time, so we can focus on design and coding the core parts.
dreamyToto_twitter
09:49@dockimbel hi Nenad, is stuff like concurrency also required to reach 1.0, and be used on blockchains ?
dockimbel
10:00@dreamyToto_twitter Yes, but concurrency does not necessarily imply parallelism, so async tasks should be supported and enough for 1.0.
dreamyToto_twitter
10:06@dockimbel Ok, great ! And I/O will fully support
10:07Unicode
10:08and encodind stuff ?
10:08in 1.0, I mean ?
onetom
10:09@maximvl good to hear it was not only me who sat it through and enjoyed it! i felt uber-geeky doing so actually :)
dockimbel
10:32@maximvl
> @pekr i feel like Etherium tooling and Red coins are two separate news

Could have been two separate news yes, but for the sake of giving the big picture from start, I put them together.
10:34@dreamyToto_twitter Current I/O already fully support Unicode. For other main encoding formats, we will provide codecs. v0.6.4 already has a Latin1 decoder added recently by @qtxie .
pekr
10:36Well, after being skeptical first (not being fan of a Bitcoin and related stuff), re-reading blog post, etc., I am just now a bit nervous, wish for the plan to work. Red Foundations, FullStack for commercial purposes (that's how I read the news), new employees - you will guys need to raise high amount of money, to afford something like even 5 developers for the - let's say - 3 to 5 years period?
dockimbel
10:51Well, we'll scale the spendings according to the funds raised. We need to grow bigger and I think that's the best course of action for us. With the clearer separation between the foundation and the company, it should make the governance and inner workings of the Red codebase management easier to understand and more transparent.
pekr
11:33I just hope and wish Red Core development would not be slowed down because of all those organisational stuff. Hopefully you need the core technology base for Red/C3 itself too ....
9214
11:46@onetom

> do you know if there are followup videos on those topics they mentioned being not covered

I'm not aware of any right now, this one was in the article you posted
https://medium.com/@mattcondon/getting-up-to-speed-on-ethereum-63ed28821bbe
onetom
11:50@9214 :) great, haven't realized it
maximvl
12:08@dockimbel btw I don't recall you mentioning funds raising in the post
12:08can this be shared on public?
9214
12:16@maximvl IMO it's too sensitive information to share with outsiders
12:20https://lobste.rs/s/hayyrw/red_programming_language_goes
OneArb
13:27@maximvl
> i feel like Etherium tooling and Red coins are two separate news

you mean Ethereum - just teasing...
dockimbel
14:53@maximvl I'm not sure what you mean, the ICO *is* the fund raising. Unles you are talking about our seed funding in 2015?
OneArb
15:28@dockimbel @pekr
> new employees - you will guys need to raise high amount of money, to afford something like even 5 developers for the - let's say - 3 to 5 years period?

I find the Average software developer compensation at 27 000 USD in China.
Would 55 000 USD per developer counting overhead be in the ballpark?

3 years for 5 devs 825 000 plus everything else, let's round at 1 500 000, 1 200 000 on a shoe string.

I choose 3 years because by then something has to come out to justify a further round.

There may be some seed funding lined up, then fine, otherwise 3 000 000 seems to be the bare minimum to raise?
dockimbel
15:36@OneArb Indeed, less than that would be too little to have a significant impact on our roadmap.
OneArb
16:51@dockimbel Has a jurisdiction been chosen for the ICO?
asampal
18:35@dockimbel have you, in considering the direction you recently announced, looked at Urbit? If not, there might be a good fit for Red there, especially in the way of enabling more user friendly DSLs to output code for their Nock VM.

https://urbit.org
18:36They've also recently blogged about Urbit and how it will align with the blockchain - https://urbit.org/blog/2017.9-critique
18:49IMO, a collaboration between Red and Urbit could benefit both projects. This video attempts to describe what Urbit is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1qroWiZF90
coventry
21:05Does RTC have a good securities-law plan, or should US residents stay away?
maximvl
23:58@dockimbel oh, then I'm lost, how is giving away the coins can be a fund raising?

OneArb
00:34@maximvl People invest in RTC, then Red Foundation rewards past contributions, taken off funding.
04:58@maximvl Sorry, let me restate. ICO reserves part of RCT to reward existing contributors, marketing, code contributions, etc. Pretty standard ICO practice.

There is no cost to the foundation for the coins distributed to contributors. Investors know an RCT subset only is available to purchase, another subset is set aside for the purpose mentioned above and possibly another subset reserved for future use.
05:16@dockimbel
* If forgot to thank for the Christmas present! Thanks! :)
* I think RCT ICO can get to 10 000 000 provided a clear focus Red is a working product
** committed to support several blockchains
dockimbel
06:54@asampal Nice to see you back here. We will have a look at that after the ICO, we are really way too busy for now.
06:56@maximvl
> @dockimbel oh, then I'm lost, how is giving away the coins can be a fund raising?

The tokens have different allocations for different purposes. One part is for the ICO, where token are sold. Another part is for the foundation, that will use them to grow up the community and sponsor contributions.
07:02@OneArb @coventry Those questions about ICO details should be asked in a dedicated chat group we will set up after New Year. The purpose of this chat room is technical and community-related.
07:10To reply shortly on the questions you both asked: we have several options for the jurisdiction, no final decision yet. About allowing buyers from US, we are looking into the options for that, but that's not simple as you know already.
pekr
08:14Patrick Zandl, one Czech analyst, posted a tweet towards the article claiming blockchains are here 10 years and mostly noone came up with some good used case. Zandl states, that it is mostly just 5 years and that we should give the technology at least another 5, to show its potential .... https://hackernoon.com/ten-years-in-nobody-has-come-up-with-a-use-case-for-blockchain-ee98c180100
08:14This technology simply goes beyond just computing. I regard it still being in an early stages of its influence ...
OneArb
08:45@pekr
> claiming blockchains are here 10 years and mostly none came up with some good used case.

Many programmers are at work developing blockchain technology. Hence Bitcoin and Ethereum have served as a funding mechanism that has allowed seed capital on July 2017 to be on par with global mainstream seed investment.

It's at that point that the SEC decided to pull the plug, following suit from China to forbid ICOs.

Is circumventing legacy venture capital funding not a use case? Or should it demonstrate the potency of decentralizing and talied as a major win?
rebolek
09:02@pekr Oh, that’s my boss.
OneArb
09:03Really?
rebolek
09:04Yes, he leads the [Turris Omnia](https://omnia.turris.cz/en/) project.
OneArb
09:51@rebolek Could you please forward my statement to Patrick Zandl?
rebolek
10:06@OneArb he's not the author of the article, he just tweeted it. And AFAIK he invested in bitcoin/cryptocurrencies.
OneArb
10:13@rebolek are you, if I may, working on some type of cryto investment project?
rebolek
10:14@OneArb only the stuff I described you privately.
maximvl
10:16@dockimbel so who will buy the coins and why?
rebolek
10:17Investors, because they would expect their price to rise.
pekr
10:17Also - if the project is about to raise something like 1 to few millions of USD, then surely it is not about the donation-like investments of 50 here, 200 USD there ...
10:19As Bo described on the AltMe - it is also for ppl, who already hold some value in terms of recent cryptocurrencies. Well, I am not one of them. So even if I would invest 1-2K USD, it will not help project at all. We are imo talking completly different levels of investments for ICO phase, imo ....
OneArb
11:27@rebolek I am trying to get the ball rolling on something in Redbol.
11:31@pekr Please note in the announcement "angel round". One thing to realize is that crypto and VCs have quite different a concept about the value of money ;)
11:34If presented adequately, money is litterally raining in crypto, due in part because of the CME and CBOE starting to trade Bitcoin futures. Bitstamp exchange reported they quintupled their customer support.
coventry
15:51@dockimbel: Thanks (regarding https://gitter.im/red/blockchain?at=5a43458e232e79134d96b2ea)
rebolek
21:04Hm.
Estonia, leader in European E-government is considering ICO for all their E-residents with ESTcoin.

dockimbel
00:28@rebolek I think that it will be the first one from a long list of small countries doing the same.
onetom
05:26this looks like a nice chain: https://www.cardanohub.org/en/home/
i don't know how has it avoided my radar so far... :/
OneArb
07:47@onetom
> this looks like a nice chain: https://www.cardanohub.org/en/home/

That's Charles Hoskison's baby, his company is in HK. The most solid crypto team in the space imho



9214
10:11https://hackernoon.com/we-already-know-blockchains-killer-apps-f2d443eba35 idk if this is a fluff piece or something worth reading
OneArb
9214
13:20@OneArb hey, I was reading! :D
OneArb
13:21@9214 I went through it and usually do not read this type of article because of the language used.

I am not sure that material benefits Red as suggesting the Dark Web as a killer app is both misleading and a potential apology for illegal activity.

It is misleading because neither Bitcoin nor Ethereum are private or anonymous, if anything they are the perfect tool to fight criminal activity. I can back my claim with technical evidence.

I support professional use of the blockchain such as some [former high level officials](https://finance.yahoo.com/news/former-fdic-chair-sheila-bair-shouldnt-ban-bitcoin-141019569.html] ) do.
9214
13:22@OneArb :+1: thanks, so, it's indeed a fluff piece ;)
OneArb
13:40@9214 There is a media layer that can be antagonistic to cryptos, Bitcoin being a specific target. On the other hand Reuters is pretty professional, I read a lot coindesk.com, cointelegraph.com is positive too. After reading all the corporate activity in crypto space, I feel more confident significant capital is invested and coming into the space.

Whenever someone speaks about cryptos, I can identify in a few sentence what one has read. When reading the opposite view, people tend to copycat without doing any further research.

PeterWAWood
02:33It seems as though Venezuela is about to launch an oil-backed crypto-currency according to [Reuters](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-venezuela-economy/enter-the-petro-venezuela-to-launch-oil-backed-cryptocurrency-idUSKBN1DX0SQ).
greggirwin
03:27C3 should be on https://github.com/pirapira/awesome-ethereum-virtual-machine eventually.
pekr
03:35http://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/Red-open-source-project-goes-on-blockchain-a-new-full-stack-toolchain-for-smart-contract-development-1012237202
03:35They link to the facebook group, instead of a website or Gitter, a bit strange ....
OneArb
05:01@pekr Easier to measure marketing impact on FB than on Red website?
05:24@PeterWAWood [Singapore Money Authority](http://www.trustnodes.com/2017/06/07/singaporean-dollar-tokenized-ethereums-blockchain-monetary-authority-singapore) has plans to back Singapore Dollar on an Ethereum blockchain, most likely a private one.

Keep in mind Bitcoin is legal tender in Japan.
pekr
07:36Was Red FB group recently switched to public? As few days ago I still had to allow ppl to join-in?
07:53OK, still have to aprove. Approved Toomas right now, it is just public, which is probably good ....
toomasv
08:21@pekr Thanks! :passport_control:
onetom
16:05As I've noticed there are many people in the community who hasn't looked into blockchains deeper yet.
While there are not many comprehensive, high quality learning material is out there, you can actually find pretty good paid courses.

Now, I haven't actually went thru any completely yet,
but there is a discount period on https://www.udemy.com/
so courses uniformly cost $12 USD for the next ~3 hours.

After a quick skim of the table of contents, I would say this course looks like it deserves being bought:
https://www.udemy.com/full-cryptocurrency-course-bitcoin-ethereum-blockchain/
16:06if anyone here knows really great learning materials, please share it here
16:43and this course lists the things which should be simplified by Red/C3 ;)
https://www.udemy.com/getting-started-with-ethereum-solidity-development/
dreamyToto_twitter
17:24Hi everybody, is it possible here to ask a few "very ignorant" questions on blockchains / coins ?
17:28like : on a system like Ethereum or others, does every node stores the full blockchain since its creation ?
17:31When a block is registered on the blockchain, is the full blockchain re-validated from the beginning ?
17:34all the nodes on a chain have to validate a new block before its registration ? If NOT, how many nodes have to validate it ? How does it work ?
17:37That's why it consumes so much energy ?
17:45For Coins (bitcoins of others) : why banks would tolerate these crypto currencies if they become very popular around the world, as it doesn't require central systems, banks, or other financial authorities ? Could banks try to control blockchains ?
rebolek
18:10Hi @dreamyToto_twitter this forum is more for Red-related blockchain discussion, but I believe someone can answer your questions. But let me try:
> When a block is registered on the blockchain, is the full blockchain re-validated from the beginning ?

No need for that, it's just added to blockchain, last hash ensures everything in blockchain is valid.
dreamyToto_twitter
18:14@rebolek sorry, thank you very much !
rebolek
18:15> That's why it consumes so much energy ?

Bitcoin consumes energy because it's proof mechanism was designed for much smaller scale.
18:16> on a system like Ethereum or others, does every node stores the full blockchain since its creation ?

Right, it does.
18:17> Could banks try to control blockchains ?

There are blockchains controlled by banks. See Ripple.
18:18Anyway, banks are just institutions that will use anything that will bring them profit. Be it gold, slaves, or blockchain.
dreamyToto_twitter
18:18@rebolek Thank you very much for you replies.
18:20Yes, you're right on banks. But, people could choose coins not controlled by banks.
rebolek
18:20@dreamyToto_twitter you're welcome. And you should take a look at Red language, if you are interested in programming for blockchain :)
18:21@dreamyToto_twitter Every coin is controlled by someone, it may not be a bank, but does it matter in the end?
dreamyToto_twitter
18:23Yes, you're right ! But, it supposed to be decentralized system, no?
rebolek
18:24It's supposed to be. But it evolves to centralization. It's natural process.
dreamyToto_twitter
18:27On a blockchain, if every node stores the full chain since its creation, it must be a huge amount of data ?
18:27How big is the most ancient blockchain right now ?
rebolek
18:28Bitcoin's bchain is 140GB right now.
dreamyToto_twitter
18:31I thought it was more than that
18:34especially if Smart Contracts store regularly their state on the blockchain, and if they are more and more used
rebolek
18:36Ethereum is bigger, around 400 GB
18:36with all smart contracts
dreamyToto_twitter
18:38@rebolek OK. And do you know why blockchain proof mechanism consumes so much energy ?
rebolek
18:41@dreamyToto_twitter Current mechanisms require you to find a number that fits specific set of requirements and finding such number takes lot of time and energy. It also gets harder the less bitcoins are available.
18:42There are other technologies in newer blockchains that are less energy demanding
dreamyToto_twitter
18:44@rebolek OK, new technologies where finding this number is easier, or done differently, I suppose
rebolek
18:44Done differently.
18:44I can't comment on details, because I'm not expert at this area.
dreamyToto_twitter
18:45@rebolek thanks anyway !
rebolek
18:46@dreamyToto_twitter you're welcome, I'm glad to help
dreamyToto_twitter
18:50> And you should take a look at Red language, if you are interested in programming for blockchain
18:50Actually, I've discovered Rebol 2 around 2001/2002 thanks to the french magazine "Login" that Nenad knows : http://www.rebol-france.org/documentation/livres
And I've used it at work for tooling, to make a few operations easier.
And I follow Red progress...
rebolek
18:50:+1:
dreamyToto_twitter
18:53@rebolek I'm especially waiting for full Red GUI on Android, I/O and concurrency/parallelism...
rebolek
18:54I understand :)
dreamyToto_twitter
18:56But, I've understood that it will be slightly delayed because of ICO and other activities !
rebolek
18:57Who knows, today there was a commit that added thread support under Windows.
dreamyToto_twitter
19:01Great ! Big difference compared to Rebol 2 and 3 ! If I'm not wrong, it was never implemented on Rebol ?! Am I correct ?
rebolek
19:03There was task! type in Rebol 3 that never worked.
dreamyToto_twitter
19:05Yes, unfortunately !
19:06@rebolek thanks a lot for all this information !
rebolek
19:07:neckbeard:
onetom
19:33@dreamyToto_twitter I've included some useful links in the topic of the room which can answer your questions with a bit more context
dreamyToto_twitter
19:41@onetom thanks a lot ! I will
19:42check it
19:45I've already started to read this article : https://medium.com/@mattcondon/getting-up-to-speed-on-ethereum-63ed28821bbe
19:45really great article !
19:48Speaks about lots of things in this domain, very detailed, lots of useful links. Just great !
OneArb
22:39@dreamyToto_twitter
> There are blockchains controlled by banks. See Ripple.

Ripple is a startup financed in part by the CME Group, the main US commodity exchange. It is however an open source project.

It's clear first aim is to overtake SWIFT international transfer business working around Central Banks who funnel the majority of international transfer. SWIFT is a cooperative corporation owned by banks.

Ripple controls, 55 Billion XRP, worth 100 Billion USD today. It remains to be seen how much independence this stash buys now that Ripple overtook Uber as the highest valued startup. Ripple overtook Ethereum to become the #2 market cap today. Will it hold?
22:59@dreamyToto_twitter
> @rebolek OK. And do you know why blockchain proof mechanism consumes so much energy ?

Almost all coins use POW - Proof of Work - strategies to secure the blockchain, that is do useless calculations such as finding the SHA-256 key for a random number called nonce. The first miner that cracks the key gets the reward ETH, BTC and many others and the right to issue the new block.

Ethereum researches into Proof of Stake aiming at putting an end to the waste. You'd be surprised to find out there are already other eco-friendly strategies such as Proof of Capacity, pre-compiled hashes stored on disk, BURST, using computing for scientific research, FoldingCoin or GirdCoin, also IOTA and XRP with no mining at all.

The jury is still out!

BeardPower
14:57@OneArb
> @BeardPower Most exchange APIs I looked provide http get, do you mean stock, bond, futures, etc.

Exactly. I want to create a multi-asset platform, with all the bells and whistles of other software, but better, faster, smaller, fancier and very nice features.
APIs have the issue of fragmentation. Every broker/exchange is using its own specific one, which is inflexible and takes a lot of integration/coding work. They are neither fast nor a standard. Same with FIX/FAST, it's not a strict standard. I want to use socket-based TCP protocols like DTC or Connect: a one-time integration, which opens up a whole number of exchanges (Crypto exchanges, stocks, forex, bonds, futures...).
dreamyToto_twitter
17:13@OneArb Thanks for your reply. How many miners are there on a blockchain ? Once a block is issued, it is integrated in every single node of the chain ? How is it performed ? By replication between nodes ?
greggirwin
18:44@OneArb , would 0MQ be a good transport for what you're thinking?

OneArb
14:23@greggirwin

It happens I am considering building in Red what seems the crypto part of @BeardPower project. I face a major accounting headache tracking my crypto investments across exchanges and am yet to find an off-the-shelf solution fitting my needs.

I hear 0MQ being thrown around. 0MQ architect has addressed 0MQ shortcomings - POSIX compliance, threading, broadcast subscription scaling ... - in his [nanomsg library](http://nanomsg.org/documentation-zeromq.html).

Since either Digital Trade Chain DTC or FX Connect deal with the messaging mechanism, I am not sure how an additional transport mechanism would fit, outside sending proprietary data such as pushing automated trade recommendations.

14:39@dreamyToto_twitter

The number of miners depends on the coin and it's popularity. Ethereum, GPU mined, is a lot less centralized than Bitcoin which requires ASIC hardware to be profitable.

The miner who mints the new block broadcasts a message to its nearby peers. It's the nodes responsibility to reply by a request of the new block from its peers.
BeardPower
14:47Well, there are a lot of transport mechanisms/serialization formats, which can be integrated into DTC or connect. Both are currently also supporting ProtocolBuffers. It would be straight forward to support FlatBuffers, Cap'n Proto, MessagePack, SBE.... The [DTC protocol](http://dtcprotocol.org/) is a good choice, because it's open, free and supports many feeds already.
OneArb
16:21@BeardPower I am not 100% sure where does your project value proposition stand. On the crypto side you'll need to deal with many exchange API, including ICO platforms, hardware and software wallets.

Sounds like a job for an open source project. If you'd like to be the Bloomberg of crypto then integrate news.

Such Red open source layer covering the scope of crypto space, connecting exchanges and wallets, would turn Red into a major contender in becoming blockchain lingua franca.

Such library can justify a Red coin reward sized to incentivize contribution.
greggirwin
17:29@OneArb and @BeardPower, thanks. I will read up on DTC. I hope we have a chance, before networking schemes are all written, to see if we can create an FSM dialect to assist with protocol development. There are at least a few from R2 days. I think Doc and Gabriele's were more advanced in capability, while mine was more a top-down dialect experiment.
gltewalt
17:32Turns out I was a miner years ago when I was incrementing values to find a match for MD5 phone numbers?
greggirwin
gltewalt
17:37So is concurrency going to become one of the most important goals for Red?
greggirwin
17:39Slightly OT, I find it interesting how the pendulum swings between ease of use and flexibility, and performance. Not long ago I cam across an article about how to speed up string-to-integer conversions, low level stuff, because the overhead was impacting their server. The data was all JSON, so they were maybe going to move to a binary encoding, to avoid it altogether. Another case where, if we get it right, it should be almost a one-liner to switch to redbin format when it makes sense.
gltewalt
17:43 I was looking at language benchmarks last night, and noticed that regex tasks varied widely by language and didn't necessarily line up with the overall speedyness of a language. Is that due to the chosen algorithm for each language?
17:45For example, golang was mostly equivalent to java9 and faster on many tasks, but wayyyyy slower on regex task than java9
greggirwin
17:47Regex engines vary widely. May depend, too, on generated code. Golang still doesn't optimize, yes? While Java will JIT, and may win big time on something like regex.
gltewalt
17:54Not sure