Archived messages from: gitter.im/red/blockchain from year: 2018

meijeru
12:51@9214 What about Doc's answers on the home page in relation to your QA session on the Wiki?
9214
12:51@meijeru https://github.com/red/red/wiki/QA-session
12:52not sure what do you mean tho?
onetom
14:24http://www.red-lang.org/2018/01/answers-to-community-questions.html
14:24@gltewalt your question has been answered in this article too ^^^
meijeru
15:37That is what I meant: the two overlap. Time to rationalise?
9214
15:44@meijeru they overlap because I volunteered to organize all questions in a wiki for Doc to answer them in a dedicated Q/A article (the recent one), no? :smile:
geekyi
15:48Hehe, I just read the pair of blog posts. Kinda caught up, except I don't know what C3 is tho.. (Woops, I think I didn't finish the first post)
9214
15:49@geekyi
> A new Red dialect (DSL) whose code-name is Red/CCC (Cross Chain Code) or just Red/C3, for smart contracts programming.
meijeru
16:09So the Wiki QA is short-lived?
9214
16:09@meijeru I don't plan to delete it
BeardPower
16:27@OneArb
>I am not 100% sure where does your project value proposition stand. On the crypto side you'll need to deal with many exchange API, including ICO platforms, hardware and software wallets.

The value proposition is, that it's using Red :smile:
No bloat, fast, light on resources, cross-platform, easy updates, stable and fast data feeds, integration of various brokers/exchanges, multi-asset, wallets, possibility to changed everything from UI, logic, plugins in an easy, flexible and human readable form.

There are some existing and upcoming exchanges, which support various exchanges, ICOs, hardware and software wallets. But sure, the API fragmentation is a problem, that's, why I want to use services, which don't go this route but an open, free and a common protocol/interface.
As long as there is an open API, there is the possibility of an integration. It needs more work, but doable. Plugins are easy and natural with Red.

>Sounds like a job for an open source project. If you'd like to be the Bloomberg of crypto then integrate news.

The idea of implementing something like this was born, after I searched for trading platforms, which are Open Source and offer the same features as the common free/commercial ones. Well, there was not really one. The majority of the platforms have their UI stuck in the 90ties, have wrong or inflexible implementations of time-independent chart-types, are bloated, slow or inflexible.
Yes, this maybe some job for an open source project.

>Such Red open source layer covering the scope of crypto space, connecting exchanges and wallets, would turn Red into a major contender in becoming blockchain lingua franca.

Not only the crypto space. It should be a multi-asset platform, which is secure, flexible, fast, non-bloated, easy extendable, nice looking and easy adaptable for everyone and every asset class.

>Such library can justify a Red coin reward sized to incentivize contribution.

Yes, I'm really curious about the C3 project and the coin rewards. A trading software like this would need a lot of components like charts, DSLs for trading and indicators/strategies, wallets (software and hardware), easy code sharing, trade copying and much more.





greggirwin
17:01If those who know this domain well would like to start a wiki page, that would be great. Knowing what the biggest pain points are, what features are most needed, etc. is helpful. The core team already knows a lot of this, as they've done their homework before deciding to go this direction, but if we can leverage domain expertise, that's what Red is all about.

BeardPower
14:13Which ICO platform will be used?
dockimbel
14:55@BeardPower What do you mean by "platform"?
BeardPower
15:02@dockimbel There are platforms to launch one's ICO campaign. They take care of whitepapers, marketing, wallets, tokens, contracts, KYC, AML, audits, token distribution and so on.
15:06Or will you all handle this yourself?
dockimbel
15:30@BeardPower We have some partners to help us, but they are not a "platform".
BeardPower
15:37@dockimbel Nice. I am looking forward to the launch. :+1:

kns1966
00:12Will participation be limited to those with existing crytocurrency assets or also legal tender?
x8x
01:09@BeardPower Just curious, could you list some of those platforms?
BeardPower
03:12@x8x sure. There are some, which are having their own ICO at the moment. Prices are not cheap ;-)
I will use a quote:

>The ICO process does not require a platform in the SaaS sense at all. It is, however, a collection of service assets that support the increasingly complex ICO process which is becoming very difficult to navigate successfully for both the advisor and the founding team with a great project. And yes I have come across some amazing projects unlocked by the genius concept of the Token itself.

https://coinlaunch.co/
https://tokenmarket.net/ico-professional-services
https://icobench.com/services
https://icobox.io/
https://cryptorated.com/icopedia/top-platforms-for-launching-an-ico/

Maybe there is some value for the Red ICO in these links :smile:
03:20As you can read, some are just calling those the "platform": Ethereum , Waves, Nxt, Bitshares, NEM, etc. and the service companies calle their products ICO "platforms", because of their one-stop ICO services.
x8x
03:31woo.. lot of stuff! :fire: thank you @BeardPower !
dockimbel
03:34@kns1966 You will need ETH to buy our token during the ICO.
BeardPower
03:43@x8x You're welcome. There are a lot of platforms popping up recently, so ICO/Tokenized Asset Management (TAM) is a real big thing.
maximvl
13:15>You will need ETH to buy our token during the ICO
13:15ETH is Etherium, right?
are1000
13:15ETH is Ether
13:15 but from Ethereum blockchain
maximvl
13:16also, duplicating my question here, will coin holders have an ability to vote on project stuff? eg priority of features, libs and so on?
9214
13:17@maximvl AFAIK yes, you'll be able to vote with your tokenpoket :money_with_wings: ;)
maximvl
13:18things like should we rename the project to Purple? xD
9214
13:19yeah, though such proposal won't be taken seriously
rebolek
13:19with enough coins behind that proposal...
9214
13:20... system will prove to be flawed :(
maximvl
13:20no, exactly the opposite
13:21anyway I always been suspicious to those trading platforms
13:22so where do I buy this some ether?
are1000
13:22In an apropriate exchange in your country
rebolek
13:22in a dark alley from suspiciously looking stranger
maximvl
13:22why in my country? isn't it global and no-borders thingy
are1000
13:23well, you still need to buy it with your currency
13:23and not every exchange supports every currency
maximvl
13:23@rebolek lol, yea, from a suspiciously looking geeky teenager
13:23with a star trek t-shirt
are1000
13:23https://www.coinbase.com/ is a good one
rebolek
13:23@are1000 I used https://www.coinbase.com/ and it's definitely not in my country
are1000
13:24It doesnt have to be in your country, just appropriate
13:25I cannot use PLN to buy ETH or BTC in my country, so therefore I cannot use coinbase with PLN
maximvl
are1000
13:26but if I have an account that allows me to exchange money on the fly, I can buy it through PLN->EUR->ETH
maximvl
13:26I mean coinbase is not in your country
are1000
13:26Coinbase wasn't available in Poland for quite some time
maximvl
are1000
13:26I made an account approx. 6 months ago
maximvl
13:26wow, ok
are1000
13:27and a lot of other exchanges don't necessarily have to allow you to exchange money if you are not in specific countries
13:27or don't operate with specific currency
13:28Tho you don't have to necessarily buy crypto, you can always mine it ;)
BeardPower
13:42@are1000 Coinbase has one of the worst customer support
13:44Will the wallet address one has to send to, be a contract address?
13:47@are1000
>Tho you don't have to necessarily buy crypto, you can always mine it ;)

If you have the money or time ;-)

It's very hard for US residents to participate in ICOs because of strict regulations. Most ICOs do not care about this, and get into big problems afterwards.
are1000
13:52@BeardPower I've never had any problems with them, maybe thats why :(
BeardPower
13:55@are1000 They switched their focus on their GDAX exchange. Ridiculous KYC times and their service does not scale well.
are1000
13:56You are probably right, what is the better alternative?
BeardPower
13:57@are1000 I don't want to advertise a specific company here or get too much OT, so I will PM you.
are1000
13:57@BeardPower would love that!
dockimbel
14:03@BeardPower
> Will the wallet address one has to send to, be a contract address?

Yes, it will be a crowdfunding contract address. We are currently working on testing it heavily.
BeardPower
14:05@dockimbel Thanks!
17:24I will write some wiki entry or similar with some info regarding wallets, exchanges and general links/tips, so everyone, who is not familiar with the crypto scene can follow the ICO.
9214
17:29@BeardPower :+1:
greggirwin
17:56+1 Thanks @BeardPower!
BeardPower
18:06You'r welcome.
ne1uno
19:21eth is at an all time high. is Red gambling the price continues to rise?
19:224x what it was a few weeks ago. that doesn't seem sustainable
CryptoGaston_twitter
rebolek
22:44@CryptoGaston_twitter hello
gltewalt
22:44I read some rumor-mill stuff that said amazon might announce that they will take alt-currency around Feb. 4th.
If that happens values will go up for awhile.
BeardPower
23:04@ne1uno
It's just the normal volatility. ETH is not on an ATH. It still needs to push further. :)

10-15% up and down is nothing to worry about. If it falls for 25%, I would be concerned.
23:06>4x what it was a few weeks ago. that doesn't seem sustainable

Welcome to the world of crypto-currencies ;-)
23:08@gltewalt I think you are referring to this: Amazon bought three domain names related to crypto-currency in November 2017.

CryptoGaston_twitter
01:08 So my apologies for the question... as I’m sure it has been asked a million times, but does anyone know when the ICO is supposed to take place? Has a date been set yet?
BeardPower
01:32@CryptoGaston_twitter Not yet:
>Do you have an estimate how long establishing that foundation will take, couple weeks?

We expect it to be officially set up before the end of January (if not delayed by extra paperwork). We are setting it up in Paris, France.
CryptoGaston_twitter
01:33Ah, thank you.
01:34I saw that question on the webpage. I didn’t realize that’s what was being referred to by “foundation”. :)
BeardPower
01:34You're welcome. You can read about it here: [Community questions](http://www.red-lang.org/2018/01/answers-to-community-questions.html)
CryptoGaston_twitter
01:35Sounds like it may still be too early, but any idea if it’ll be open to US Residents?
BeardPower
01:39I don't know, but ICOs for US residents are always tricky with the regulations and exceptions. It's best to ask @dockimbel about this.
CryptoGaston_twitter
01:40Thanks!
BeardPower
01:47>I saw that question on the webpage. I didn’t realize that’s what was being referred to by “foundation”. :)

The ICO will be run by the foundation, but more information should be coming soon:

>All other ICO-related questions will be answered once we set up the landing page for the ICO, with the published whitepaper and adequate communication channels. All that is under heavy work right now, we should be ready in about a week from now.
01:52Found some more info for you :)
>The ICO itself should be held in early January 2018, starting with an angel round, then pre-sale and open rounds following right after. A new website will be available in a few days, giving the full information required for the ICO.
PeterWAWood
02:15@CryptoGaston_twitter @dockimbel is not in a position to offer advice about whether US citizens can participate in an ICO.
BeardPower
02:26@CryptoGaston_twitter In case you missed the [QA-session](https://github.com/red/red/wiki/QA-session), it has some answers for you:
Q: Does RCT have a good securities-law plan, or should US residents stay away?
A: About allowing buyers from US, we are looking into the options for that, but that's not simple as you know already.
CryptoGaston_twitter
02:53Great, thanks!
02:56@PeterWAWood It’s usually either allowed or not allowed, by whoever is holding the token sale. Not really a matter of “advice.” But it sounds like it may be up in the air, per the information shared by PowerBeard.
PeterWAWood
03:30@CryptoGaston_twitter If US laws forbid US citizens to participate in an ICO it would be wrong of @dockimbel to advise that US citizens can participate. The organisation making the ICO has no idea of the nationality of the purchaser so any statement as to whether a citizen of county X, Y or Z can purchase is only advice.

Whilst @dockimbel knows an awful lot about many things, I don't think he knows sufficient about US laws to state that US citizens can participate in the ICO. He can safely say they are not allowed to participate but it would be remiss of him to say that they can.
dockimbel
05:13@BeardPower
> I will write some wiki entry or similar with some info regarding wallets, exchanges and general links/tips, so everyone, who is not familiar with the crypto scene can follow the ICO.

That would be mostly helpful, thank you!
hipboi
07:40what about the ICO?
07:41is it end already?
gltewalt
08:54http://www.red-lang.org/2018/01/answers-to-community-questions.html
9214
09:21@hipboi it's not even started yet
hipboi
09:21@9214 I heard the angle round is over already
9214
09:21@hipboi source?
hipboi
09:22wechat group
09:22Rumors
9214
09:22more like speculations, I would say ;)
hipboi
9214
09:23whenever something is about to get started - you'll know it in this room, so, stay tuned
hipboi
09:24haha
meijeru
09:25@hipboi My Chrome browser says radxa.com is not safe. Do you know why?
hipboi
09:26@meijeru :O
09:27@meijeru hmm… It seems the issue of force https
CryptoGaston_twitter
09:33@PeterWAWood The organization DOES have “an idea of the nationality.” Some ICOs use geolocation to block US Citizens. Yes, it can be bypassed if someone was really determined... but generally, the token issuer makes an assessment regarding their token sales ability to comply with US law and proceeds one way or the other. ICOs are not “forbidden” in the US, but if the token is considered a security, additional steps need to be taken by the issuer before US citizens can buy. This is way more nuanced than you’re making it out to be.
BeardPower
13:41@CryptoGaston_twitter @PeterWAWood
First, I'm not a lawyer. I just want to tell you, what I know out of experience and working in this field.
When I said, @dockimbel has to be asked for this, I did not state, that he has the authority or knowledge himself about this topic (as he is not a lawyer), but it's possible, that he can provide an answer (through knowing or working together with lawyers/people, who have this knowledge).
I'm sorry, if there was some misunderstanding on this!

>It’s usually either allowed or not allowed, by whoever is holding the token sale.

There are two groups of ICOs: ICOs, which do not care about to be compliant with the laws and ICOs, which do!
Regarding the US, the regulations are based on residency, not citizenship. If you are an accredited investor, there is no issue with participating in an ICO. There needs to be a legal council involved on a case to case basis, getting an exception, that US residents are not classified as accredited investors.
Another issue is allowing fiat currency for the ICO. The company behind the ICO would need a money service license for that. Every country has different regulations. The reason, why the former group of ICOs accept everyone and offers to contribute in fiat currency is, because they are fully compliant with the law, don't know better or they just don't care!

So, the foundation behind the RCT ICO being one of the latter ICOs, can play it safe by not allowing all these kind of things in the first place.

@PeterWAWood
>The organisation making the ICO has no idea of the nationality of the purchaser so any statement as to whether a citizen of county X, Y or Z can purchase is only advice.

As this is being a part of KYC (knowing your customer) and AML (Anti Money Laundering), it has to.

>The organization DOES have “an idea of the nationality.” Some ICOs use geolocation to block US Citizens.

You are correct on this, but regulation is way more strict on that: KYC and AML!

If an ICO is not complying with all this, they company behind it can get in a lot of trouble afterwards.

>ICOs are not “forbidden” in the US, but if the token is considered a security, additional steps need to be taken by the issuer before US citizens can buy. This is way more nuanced than you’re making it out to be.

Absolutely, but these additional steps are very complicated and time consuming, need a lot of time and money. By not allowing US residents and fiat money as contribution form, you can minimize risk and be compliant.





CryptoGaston_twitter
13:48Thanks! I’m not advocating for any particular outcome re: allowing US residents. :) I interpreted Peter’s earlier response as, “Well, it’s up to US residents to decide if they can participate or not,” which didn’t really make sense to me. Maybe I misunderstood. Anyway, thank you for the information!
BeardPower
13:58@CryptoGaston_twitter Discussions on a chat medium is always an issue, as it leads to interpretation, compared to a phone call ;-)

But @PeterWAWood is also right, when he says, that it's also up to the contributor's due dilligence.
14:00Anyway, I'm sure the team behind it, will take care of this and do their best to provide a smooth experience. We will see the outcome in the end :)
CryptoGaston_twitter
14:27Absolutely! I’m looking forward to it, for sure!!!
14:27😁

caesarjing
07:45If you are interested in joining the official RED Token Sales group on Telegram, please follow the link https://t.me/redofficial
07:47We will have official faq’s on Telegram.
9214
07:51> official

now that's interesting, can you support that claim?
greggirwin
07:57Please Stand By...
dockimbel
07:58@9214
> If you are interested in joining the official RED Token Sales group on Telegram, please follow the link https://t.me/redofficial

It's official, sorry I should have introduced it myself. Arrived too late. ;-)
9214
07:58:shipit:
08:00@dockimbel why RED instead of Red though?
dockimbel
08:00We are setting up that telegram group for people interested investing in RED tokens. People from our team and partners will be present there to answers questions you can have related to the ICO and RED token.
08:02@9214 Trying to differentiate the token name from the language name. It's common practice (though not a technical requirement) to use three capital letters for token short names.
9214
08:02@dockimbel I thought they are RCTs?
08:03but RED resounds better, I agree
dockimbel
08:03@9214 We had to rename it (twice actually) as other tokens appeared with same name on the blockchain, so to avoid confusion. RED is actually not used by other tokens, but it is used by an obscur coin. We finally decided to use RED, still describing it as "Red community token" as its purpose has not changed.
08:08BTW, I will be presenting Red at FINWISE Summit in Macau at the end of this week (Day 1, part II): https://www.finwisesummit.com/agenda-en.html
9214
08:09hype :train: chugging around!
dockimbel
08:09@9214 ;-)
9214
09:07@dockimbel any chance that presentation will be recorded?
dockimbel
09:08@9214 No clue about that. I will ask.
gltewalt
09:37BRED
9214
09:38:bread:
gltewalt
09:43?
http://redcoin.pw/
DVL333
11:46Will information be only in Telegram? Don't want install it. :unamused:
9214
11:47@DVL333 Telegram has a web interface which you can run in any browser
11:47https://web.telegram.org/ I believe
DVL333
12:31@9214 It demands installation on smartphone first...
12:33To take information about Red is more complicated than to begin using Red. :)
May be it's simplier just to publish all information as an article?
9214
12:48@DVL333 have you checked recent QA session and announcement on red-lang.org?
12:50and I don't think that Telegram requires installation, it only needs your mobile number for authentication
12:57you don't need to join that group if you're not interested in ICO and *RED token*, general communication about *Red language* happens in this chat as usual
DVL333
14:47@9214 Yes, i have checked QA session. But, I think, it will be a lot of new interesting details about ICO... Nowaday we know nearly nothing about it.
As for Telegram, it demands installation - i've checked.
9214
14:48@DVL333 I think Red team will announce these details in this room/new article when the time will come
greggirwin
19:47I agree on channel spread, but there are more than just core devs working on the ICO, they may have their own system, and the goal is to make each team as effective as possible right now, because there's a lot going on, and a target timeframe.

dockimbel
03:42@DVL333 Telegram is just for interactive questions. For full info, it will be published on the website asap (should be today hopefully).
x8x
04:41Good intro on Smart Contract https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9WLo33KfCY
04:42And practical example in building one ( He may be using Red.. ;-) ) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TC-bDQZbXd0
dsgeyser
04:57https://techcrunch.com/2018/01/07/the-cryptocurrency-bubble-is-strangling-innovation/
dockimbel
05:18@dsgeyser The analysis is correct, but the conclusion is not giving the full picture. Bitcoin and Ethereum are just the tip of the iceberg, there are many other chains which can be used for decentralized apps that do not require a transaction fee.
dsgeyser
05:30@dockimbel Thanks. Its a case of greed killing progress.
9214
07:35I don't quite get what's the profit for investors (people in Telegram) to spent their money on ICO? It seems that they don't even interested in Red as a technology and language. :confused: There will be some gain for investing or what?
rebolek
07:38Speculation on price of Red coin. They will buy for i.e. 1$/1 RCT (or RED or what ist is going to be) and will hope they can sell for i.e. 100$/1 RCT.
9214
07:38@rebolek so I can get rich even if I'm a poor student who lives on ramen? :ramen:
rebolek
07:40@9214 If you bought bitcoins for $100 last year and sell now, you would have something like $1700.
9214
07:41now I understand why everyone went nuts with crypto
rebolek
07:42just look at this chart https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/bitcoin/#charts
9214
07:43I remember that @dockimbel associated himself with [Ommadon](http://villains.wikia.com/wiki/Ommadon) (Nenadon, that is :)), which:

> vows to dominate humanity by infesting humans with greed

:thought_balloon:
07:43[![Ommadan.jpg](https://files.gitter.im/red/blockchain/hZxz/thumb/Ommadan.jpg)](https://files.gitter.im/red/blockchain/hZxz/Ommadan.jpg)
rebolek
9214
07:47But we can also spend tokens to aid the development of Red, right?
rebolek
07:52That's how I understand it.
07:53So if your need for Linux View is bigger than your greed, you can put some tokens into it :)
greggirwin
07:53Yes, the idea is that the Red Foundation will get some tokens to do that, but we can also do it peer to peer.
9214
07:54@BeardPower how is your list of learning resources coming on? It's not that I'm pushing you, just deducing whenever I'll have a chance to understand blockchain/crypto niche in the upcoming week or two.
08:06@greggirwin and token will be a reasonable way to support development even if it won't be that much valuable in :moneybag: ?
08:07I mean, if token price won't bump up into the sky, we still can use them to help Red team (roadmap influence, tokenomics, whatever), right?
08:08or is it more complicated than that?
rebolek
08:11@9214 that's easy, if RCT price is 0,1$/RCT and you want someone to do 100$ work, you pay them 1000RCT. If the price is 100$/RCT, you will pay 1RCT.
9214
08:13Linux View = precise timing + bunch of ephemeral coins in the right hands :D
08:15throw enough money at the right time in your monitor, and magic happens :sparkles:
08:18But then, what's the profit for Red team if all what people will do is to speculate on price of purchased tokens :question:
rebolek
08:25Red team will sell the tokens in first place. Also, it will sell only part of them.
9214
08:26oh, I see
KimRoach143_twitter
08:27@rebolek 49% to sell and 51% for red inside use may be ??
9214
08:28144% :bear:
rebolek
08:29@KimRoach143_twitter I don't know any details, sorry.
KimRoach143_twitter
08:30just guessing may 60% to sell and 40% for red
rebolek
08:31AFAIK the ICO page should launch today (or tomorrow), so we should know more soon.
KimRoach143_twitter
08:32cool before that I need to buy some ether. Did you guys have yours in wallet.
rebolek
08:33I have about 0,00000345 eth
KimRoach143_twitter
09:34thats crazy 😝 I have zero just opened my wallet which wallet you guys prefer
09:52@rebolek Should I buy hardware wallet ??
rebolek
09:57@KimRoach143_twitter that's up to you, if you have lot of bitcoins/ethereum/whatever, it probably makes sense.
BeardPower
11:10@dsgeyser Most people think of BTC, mining coins and the blockchain, but this is not really the idea behind it. The idea was to have a transparent, secure and decentralized ledger. A blockchain is just one of many data structures, how such a ledger can be implemented. As @dockimbel pointed out, there are many different implementations with a different feature set. Some don't charge fees, are faster and more flexible or don't even have the possibility of coins to be mined.

@9214 As @rebolek already explained, most people are in for the fast money. They want to get into pre-token sales to buy a new token for 0.01 cents and speculate on a rising price to sell quick, There are a lot of examples, where an ICO ended in a profit factor of 1600 (no, this is not a typo) after half of a year.
There are speculation tokens and utility tokens. The former are just listed on an exchange for trading, you cannot use them for a service or to buy anything with them. The latter have actual real value, as you can use them to buy a service, vote with them or trade them. The RCT token is a utility token, which mints the "RED" coin.

>how is your list of learning resources coming on? It's not that I'm pushing you, just deducing whenever I'll have a chance to understand blockchain/crypto niche in the upcoming week or two.

No worries. I hopefully have the wiki entry finished this week. :)

@KimRoach143_twitter It depends on your usage and the balance between security and usability. Hardware wallets support other nice services as 2FA, PGP or SSH. You can also create a free paper wallet or generate your keys offline. As long as you keep your private keys safe, you are good.
This questions will also be covered by my wiki entry.
Just keep in mind, that your wallet does not keep your Ether, these are stored on the ledger, but just your keys!


9214
11:19@BeardPower :+1: thank you for detailed answer
BeardPower
11:20You're welcome.
AmurLisp_twitter
11:22I am familiar with lisp, what is the difference between lisp and red?
9214
11:25@AmurLisp_twitter the bigger one is that Red's block is just like Lisp's quoted list, and that everything remains unevaluated data until you explicitly ask for it
AmurLisp_twitter
11:27Thanks. I find the sub Chanel of red/lisp
9214
11:28@AmurLisp_twitter you might want to chat about Red language [here](https://gitter.im/red/red), since this room primarily for ICO, RCT and RED discussions
rebolek
11:30@AmurLisp_twitter https://gitter.im/red/red/lisp
AmurLisp_twitter
11:31Thanks
rebolek
11:34@AmurLisp_twitter you're welcome. Feel free to ask there for details.
9214
11:43@AmurLisp_twitter I see your question on Telegram. Well, Red/C3 branch is aimed specifically at smart contracts niche, as of now team working hard to present working prototype later in Q1 of this year. Read [recent announcement](http://www.red-lang.org/2017/12/leaping-into-future-red-goes-blockchain.html) and [QA session](http://www.red-lang.org/2018/01/answers-to-community-questions.html) for more details.

Red is successor of Rebol language, which itself could be described as "Lisp, Forth and Logo hybrid on steroids". (first version of Rebol compiler was in fact written in Scheme ;)) Lisp and Red share powerful metaprogramming capabilities, homoiconity and ease-of-use for DSL creation (as you may guess, Red/C3 will be a DSL for programming smart contracts).

What Red takes from Forth is insanely small size and language-oriented approach to solving problems (i.e. instead of programming directly in Red you might end up creating your own mini-language which is closer to the problem domain, that is, DSL).

Idk about Lisps, but Red is feature-packed from the ground up and comes with a lot of batteries included - we have built-in TDPL parser, (almost) cross platform GUI system, DSL for graphics drawing and for UI description, low-level DSL for system programming (Red/System), 50+ datatypes, experimental macro system... all of that and more is packed into single **1MB** executable.
pekr
13:12I've just called a friend, who arranged some conventional small investments for me and guess what? Their team is on the way to Rio de Janeiro for the cryptocurrency conference (NetLeaders Rio Summit) :-) Sent him some pointers towards the RED ICO - who knows - maybe they will share it around the conference :-)
rebolek
13:13Nice! :)
dockimbel
13:34@pekr Thanks. :+1:
greggirwin
16:26@BeardPower, thanks for sharing your knowledge here. It's very helpful.

BeardPower
01:19@greggirwin My pleasure. Taking Red-Knowledge, giving Crypto-Knowledge :smile:
greggirwin
01:28Fair trade!
dockimbel
03:11http://www.red-lang.org/2018/01/red-here-we-go.html
greggirwin
03:34WoooooooHoooooo!
03:35Go Red, Go!
toomasv
03:59:+1:
KimRoach143_twitter
04:56cool
pekr
05:36"RED is a utiliy" - shoul be "utility"?
greggirwin
05:48Thanks Pekr!
are1000
05:51Congratulations to @dockimbel, @greggirwin and everyone else involved in making Red/C3 happen!
pekr
05:52https://t.me/redofficial - view group button gives me an error
rebolek
05:57@pekr do you have Telegram app installed on your phone?
pekr
rebolek
05:59You need to install it and then authorize the web app thru it.
pekr
05:59I just viewed the website on my PC, not a phone
05:59There should be a note there, if the outcome might be you just receive an error?
rebolek
06:00Fill a bug :)
06:00It would be possible to set up a bot and publish a transcript, unfortunately I don't have time for it.
vulnz
06:01hello, how to buy tokens?
pekr
06:01Actually, there is, indirect one - Don't have Telegram? Try it now .... Not so clear when ready to press the button below .... well, we will see, maybe it is just me, who got confused ....
rebolek
06:02It's not, it took me a while too ;)
greggirwin
06:02I DLd and installed it, which worked.
06:03@vulnz, have wait for the open sale, and be in a place where you can participate.
toomasv
09:19Shouldn't there be an acknowledgement email after registration or something? Can't vierify if registration was successful
rebolek
10:04https://ico.red-lang.org/ - "getting started" link points to https://www.red-lang.org/ but only non-secure version exists
ne1uno
11:22!RED
11:22oops, wrong channel
BeardPower
11:56So it's KYC selfie-time :smile:
KimRoach143_twitter
11:57👍
are1000
11:57I don't have a passport :(
11:58Making one will take too long too :(
BeardPower
12:00Depending on your country, a driver's license would also suffice (according to the law), but unfortunately they only accept a passport.
12:07I will try to have the wiki entry ready until the 12th, so users can bonus from the early birds round.
12:07The bonus is 10%, BTW.
12:09@are1000 The question is also, how long it takes them for the KYC, as they are doing it manually.
are1000
12:10@BeardPower In European Union ID cards are also sufficient for identification (in most countries), but well
BeardPower
12:10@are1000 Exactly.
soapdog
15:46@dockimbel quick question regarding sending the passport pic, I am always worried of people getting the barcodes from it, is it OK to blur them a bit (blur the barcodes only)?
9214
16:34[![RED Token Sales Schedule.pdf](https://files.gitter.im/red/blockchain/q4yw/thumb/RED-Token-Sales-Schedule.jpg)](https://files.gitter.im/red/blockchain/q4yw/RED-Token-Sales-Schedule.pdf)
16:34:point_up: Red Token Sales Schedule, reposting here in case someone can't / don't want to check Telegram
maximvl
16:47telegram? is Red on telegram as well?
9214
16:48@maximvl https://t.me/redofficial
16:48it's ICO/RED related though
maximvl
16:48so only investors can buy coins? nothing for regular people? =\
9214
16:49@maximvl read roadmap carefully, early bird round starts at 12 Jan, you'll need to register and pass thru KYC process to by tokens
maximvl
16:49no idea what it means lol
9214
16:50@maximvl jeez, where have you been, in cryosleep? :D
16:50https://ico.red-lang.org/
soapdog
16:50Argh! I think I sent an address for an ETH wallet that doesn't accept ERC-20 tokens (I mixed the ERCs), do guys have advise on how to change that? Should I submit a new form?
9214
16:50@maximvl http://www.red-lang.org/2018/01/red-here-we-go.html
16:51@soapdog no idea, I think it's better to contact with customer service in Telegram room
maximvl
16:51I didn't check it for couple of days..
9214
16:51and mention them directly
soapdog
16:51Thanks @9214
16:53Just did that
16:56I would hate to miss the ICO because I sent a bad address :-(
maximvl
16:56>We are not accepting any contributions from citizens of United States
16:56did they ban coins?
9214
16:56@maximvl not sure what you mean by "ban", but in US there are hard regulations against crypto currencies, as far as I know
16:57and in some other countries as well
16:58> We are not accepting any contributions from citizens of Bangladesh, Bolivia, China (excluding Macau, Hong Kong, and Taiwan), Ecuador, Iceland, Kyrgyzstan, United States, Vietnam, or any other countries that currently ban or limit token sale activities.
16:58so yeah, ban it is
maximvl
17:03wow, great video @dockimbel and @greggirwin :D
9214
17:04yeah, @dockimbel's hands movement and @greggirwin's charm makes everyone want to buy some RED :smirk:
maximvl
17:05very apple-style presentation I would say
dockimbel
17:14@maximvl @9214 Thanks! You wouldn't believe how much work was needed just for those short interviews...
BeardPower
17:17@maximvl US regulations are just a pain in the ass and it's momentarily a grey zone. So they played it safe.
dockimbel
17:17@soapdog I need to check that. Please ask that in the Telegram group in the meantime, the community manager there should be able to get the answer quicker.
BeardPower
17:18The videos are indeed very nice :+1:
soapdog
17:19@dockimbel thanks a lot for the reply. I just asked there about the wrong address and am waiting for an answer. I am getting many of my friends excited about RED/C3 here, it will be awesome!
BeardPower
17:21@maximvl
>no idea what it means lol

Are you referring to KYC? It's an abbreviation of "Know Your Customer". AML (Anti Money Laundering) laws require any company running an ICO to know who their customers are. Once they get audited, they need to proof this.
dockimbel
17:25@soapdog Customer service on the telegram group can handle that. You can also use the ico@red-lang.org email. In case, something goes wrong for you during the sales, you can also pm me on Gitter about it (please use that as last resort only), and I should be able to change your address if not correct.
17:27@soapdog So, you submitted the wrong address in the form right? That should be a quick fix. If you don't get any reply in next 24 hours, pm me. Don't worry, you won't miss it. ;-)
17:39@toomasv What did you get after submitting the form?
toomasv
17:41@dockimbel I seem to remember that it was confirmation, but am hesitating, and wanted to check it, but didn't find any confirmation. Never mind, if there is no email confirmation until checking KYC.
dockimbel
17:45@toomasv I will have access to the KYC database before the earlybirds round starts, so if you have a doubt about your application data, you can pm me for checking before you send your Ethers.
soapdog
17:47@dockimbel thanks a lot for the support. Yes, I used the wrong address on the form only. I just generated a new one on myetherwallet now, I am new to ERC-20
toomasv
17:47@dockimbel OK. thank you!
rebolek
17:48@dockimbel what is the minimum amount to be part of ICO?
dockimbel
17:50@soapdog Welcome! You can ask here about myetherwallet and ERC-20 tokens usage, if I'm not available, there are a few crypto experts in the Red community who can help you (and others) gain more knowledge about that quickly.
17:50@rebolek Should be 1 ETH. If we lower it, the number of investors can grow too high for us to handle.
rebolek
17:51@dockimbel thanks, I was wondering if I should start scanning my passport and taking photos...
toomasv
17:58> Should be 1 ETH

Whooh, what a relief! :sweat_smile: Was already worried too much!
18:22Now can concentrate on coding.

gltewalt
01:17They didn’t ban coins in U.S., just stifling ICO regulations. There’s a bitcoin ATM in my city.
ralfwenske
02:46There is a RedCoin named RED tradeable on cryptopia.co.nz? Is this something to be concerned about or has it been discussed and I have missed that (discussion)?
24h Volume 2.8 BTC
dockimbel
02:48@ralfwenske We know about it, it's just a "coin", not an ERC20 token. It is only tradable on that exchange, and if you look closely at the project, it's a one-man thing which smells a lot like a scam. So, it's unlikely that coin will be traded anywhere else.
ralfwenske
02:50Ahh - relief. Thanks for qiuck answer. (I could have guessed that you would know about it)🙂
9214
15:25this looks rather interesting https://cryptozombies.io/
15:29https://techcrunch.com/2018/01/09/kodak-announces-ico-stock-jumps-44/
pekr
15:29Yeah, appeared yesterday .... kodak and zombie at one post, that's quite accurate :-)
9214
15:33https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ssnw2GA657s
DarrellBrogdon
16:17"We are not accepting any contributions from citizens of ..." Does that mean if I live in the US I can't participate?
9214
16:19@DarrellBrogdon unfortunately not, unless if you're an accredited investor
DarrellBrogdon
16:19Thanks @9214
9214
16:19@BeardPower is more qualified to answer this question in detail
greggirwin
17:16@DarrellBrogdon, U.S. regulations. To participate here, RED would have to be a registered security, which entails significant cost and time.
17:17I haven't done it yet, but a few articles suggest copying CryptoKitties to learn what it's like to build for the blockchain.
9214
17:19@toomasv you hear what? You know what to do, right? :point_up:
17:20oh, cryptocollectibles
17:20I'm hooked
17:22I wonder then anyone in gamedev will figure out that it's a new rise of collectathons
17:22Crypto-Kazooie and such
BeardPower
17:43@DarrellBrogdon

If you are an accredited investor you could. You would need to answer a questionary from the ICO company, to prove that to them. Additionally they would need to get a statement from a legal team, which states, that the ICO is not a security. With this letter, they can ask for an exemption letter from the SEC.
As this is very costly, they decided to play it save and don't accept US residents.

It's not about citizenship, but residency!
17:46@greggirwin RED does not need to be a registered security. If the ICO would get an exemption letter from the SEC, the ICO would not be treated as a security and so there would not be an issue with accepting US residents.
17:46US citizens can of course take part in an ICO.
greggirwin
17:51Thanks for clarifying @BeardPower. I know uLedger went through all the hoops to do it here in the U.S.
toomasv
17:56@9214 Sorry, IAA I am allergic to kitties
9214
18:00:crying_cat_face:
BeardPower
18:18@greggirwin I know of some ICOs, which are doing it right now to be fully compliant. The issue with the US is, that there is no ruling yet. The US is far behind other countries regarding Cryptos. Once the crypto exchanges and ICOs are audited, and they will be audited in the future, the majority of the ICOs and exchanges will get their ass kicked. MiFID II was already applied in the EU and many companies like Oanda needed to change their API access and many users were affected.

Regulation is a nightmare, exchange fees are horrific and are currently in an age of pirates. Regulations has to come and will come: Separate the wheat from the chaff.
18:21IIRC South Korea has a very strict ruling. You need to link your bank account to your crypto-account.
18:24@9214
>I wonder then anyone in gamedev will figure out that it's a new rise of collectathons

There are already game specific ICOs, which offer these features. Get paid for playing and all that "fancy" stuff.
9214
18:26@BeardPower I'm rather interested how blockchain, cryptocurrency and gamification could be mashed together
BeardPower
18:26@9214 I will collect some info for you, when I have the time :)
9214
18:27:heart_eyes:
BeardPower
18:28But it's basically working like this: store the transactions on a distributed ledger -> create some smart contract, which pays out cryptos for playing x seconds in the game.
9214
18:29@BeardPower in video game? I meant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamification
BeardPower
18:31Video games, advertisement, guerilla marketing. You get some x, when doing y, managed by some smart contracts. Be it some interactive ad running at some bus station, or another Pretzel game :)
9214
18:32Humans are so weird :alien:
BeardPower
18:32Totally.
18:34Collecting some stickers or catching "Pokemons" and get your "Nike" T-Shirt for 50% off... everyone and his grandma wants to run stuff on a distributed ledger now.
18:34DentaCoin -> a Coin/Token for the dental care.... :smile:
9214
18:35I wonder why Earth still spinning around :earth_americas:
BeardPower
18:35Get some coins, while brushing your teeth with the newest BT enabled electric brush :D
9214
18:36I'd buy into SleepCoins actually
rebolek
18:36@9214 it gets coins for spinning. that's how theory of distributed ledger gravity works.
9214
18:37and GetYourAssOutdoorGetSomeLifeCoin
BeardPower
18:37@9214 That's the spirit! :)
9214
18:38I'm asking about crypto and gamification because the main trick in gamification for self-improvement is to "tip" yourself (with chocolate, video games or whatever) for doing good job
18:39and the whole aspect of "made up money" is appealing in some weird sense
BeardPower
18:40I understand. I think I read something about such a thing. When you have some working task finished, it will award you with some stuff. Free coke at the cafeteria or something like that.
9214
18:41Yes, and the main drawback is that you're the ledger for yourself
18:41and you can bribe yourself :P
BeardPower
18:41Humans are so weird :alien:
9214
18:42I almost get used to this body :alien:
18:43gonna rewatch http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120764/ I guess
BeardPower
18:44There was some "mood" app long ago. Where it valued your mood, based on emails you answered and all such stuff.

uralbash
09:30What the profit from these tokens, how in the future it is supposed to use them?
dockimbel
09:32http://www.red-lang.org/2018/01/red-here-we-go.html
09:33Updated article with exchange ratios.
rebolek
09:34:+1:
dockimbel
09:34@uralbash You can see that from the [whitepaper](https://ico.red-lang.org/RED-whitepaper.pdf).
9214
12:17does bar on ICO site counts tokens sold to private investors?
12:18it's worrisome that we're still at 100% after 4 days or something
rebolek
12:18Actually, it was showing 10% sold few hours ago.
12:1910% from 200M, now the bar shows 60M.
are1000
12:19I saw this too, but it was something like 10% sold
rebolek
12:1910% is what was reserved for private angel investors.
12:1960M is rest available.
9214
12:20does this mean that we're already on early bird round? :O
rebolek
12:20Early bird round should start on Jan 12th, tomorrow.
12:20Not sure if UTC or what time.
uralbash
12:26Write article about it ICO on https://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/ 0.5M readers
9214
12:27@uralbash I think team has precise hype planning and will post news at the start of early bird round
12:27at least that's what I'd do
rebolek
12:28where can I buy 9214coin?
9214
12:28@rebolek why?
rebolek
12:28@9214 so I can influence who you will hack next.
9214
12:31@rebolek you can get me some music albums instead :D
rebolek
12:31@9214 in exchange for 9214coins? Sure!
9214
12:33@rebolek no, in exchange for hacking services :smirk:
rebolek
dockimbel
12:36The bar should be displaying now the amount for Earlybirds and open round.
rebolek
12:36@dockimbel is the bar updated manually or automatically?
dockimbel
12:37@rebolek Tomorrow at 8am UTC. But as a whitelisting is required, it depends on when your address/KYC will be processed.
9214
12:37WE ARE RICH
12:38[![QNtlE6L.gif](https://files.gitter.im/red/blockchain/W7SG/thumb/QNtlE6L.gif)](https://files.gitter.im/red/blockchain/W7SG/QNtlE6L.gif)
12:45so, this means that all 20k tokens reserved for investors were sold?
pekr
13:31Where can you see those figures?
rebolek
13:33@pekr the progress bar on ICO page was showing 10% sold from 200M tokens this morning. Now it's showing 0% from 60M (zero is expected, early bird sale starts tomorrow). Percentages what goes where are here http://www.red-lang.org/2018/01/red-here-we-go.html
pekr
13:36Ah, so the ICO site does not show the previous stage anymore .... It could be there for the motivation, no? :-)
rebolek
13:37I guess it makes more sense now, because large part of those 200M is not for sale at all.
pekr
13:37btw - what is a "lockup period"?
rebolek
13:37period when you can't sell
pekr
13:45Thought so, thanks :-)
BeardPower
13:50Wait, all the 200M tokens were sold? :+1:
9214
13:50@BeardPower rather 10% of 200M
rebolek
13:51@BeardPower All 20M allocated for private angles, according to the graph on ICO web.
9214
13:51oh, wait, you're right
BeardPower
13:51@9214 Why is it showing 60M now then?
9214
13:51> Private investors : 10% (20,000,000)
rebolek
13:5160M is allocated for early birds/open round.
BeardPower
13:51Ah, sorry, I had 200M in mind, but that was a different ICO.
rebolek
13:52200M is total supply.
BeardPower
13:53Damn, I'm getting old lol
13:53Right, right. Just checked the WP again :)
13:57The bar is a little different to other ICOs, as it just shows the current batch. Maybe it would be a good idea to show the total supply as well (for old people like me ;-)).
DideC
15:06ETH dumb here: You need ETH to buy RED, right? Then, how do you buy ETH (France here)?
are1000
15:08There are many services out there that allow you to buy ETH, listing only a few of these: https://www.bitpanda.com/ https://coinbase.com https://www.kraken.com/
15:08But there are many things you have to keep in mind, you may want to bother @BeardPower, as he is our local cryptocurrency expert.
dockimbel
15:19Private angel sales are on-going until the end of the whole crowdfunding. They have their own allocation (20M).
DideC
15:33Dumb again: when you buy ETH, do you buy integer one (ie: 1 ETH) or can you buy decimal one (ie: 0.1 ETH)?
Current change is at 1035€ for 1 ETH (if I understand correctly).
are1000
15:33@DideC you can buy even 0.00001 ETH!
15:33@DideC but if you want to invest in RED, you need at least 1 ETH
DideC
15:371 ETH! So the entry ticket is pretty high for me :-(
15:48Thanks for these answers
Phryxe
16:22So, to be part of this new Red community (use Dapps, chat, IDE etc) one has to pay 1000+€!?
dockimbel
16:25@Phryxe No, that's just for the initial token sales.
16:27RED token will not be needed to use any non blockchain-enabled part of Red. For the blockchain Dapps, it should be fairly easy to get some free RED tokens if you do anything for the community (like opening a ticket leading to a fix). Moreover, all the people who have contributed in the past to Red will receive some free tokens. ;-)
9214
16:28[![huell money breaking bad.jpeg](https://files.gitter.im/red/blockchain/luwg/thumb/huell-money-breaking-bad.jpg)](https://files.gitter.im/red/blockchain/luwg/huell-money-breaking-bad.jpeg)
16:30pension program for Rebol old-timers FTW!
toomasv
16:31I understand it so, please correct if wrong:
No need to worry about being part of community without having tokens. You can just continue as always. After ICO, management and those who have obtained tokens, can award you with tokens for your contributions. If you have tokens, you can also award others for their contributions. If you don't have tokens, you can just go on doing your job in good faith.
dockimbel
16:31@toomasv Good sum up. :+1:
toomasv
16:33 :family:
9214
16:33Wouldn't it be discouraging though? I mean, if person won't receive amount of tokens he thinks he deserves, or none at all.
dockimbel
16:34We'll distribute based on objective facts. The foundation will do that, and will set up the rules, with the help of the community.
9214
16:35@dockimbel and will "token pocket" of user be visible for everyone?
16:36I guess everyone can see all exchanges on the ledger and count how many :moneybag: you have
toomasv
16:38III don't think it's so easy to peek into anothers' purse
9214
16:39@toomasv but isn't the main idea of blockchains to make such financial operations secure and transparent?
toomasv
16:41I am not knowledgeable in blockchains, but my impression is it is built to check if you can make the transaction but not to make your purse's contents visible to the world.
16:46Of course those who award you can make a declaration about it and put it out on "halls of honour", and you can boast about being awarded, but it is not a built-in characteristic of blockchain to make everyone's treasury public.
are1000
16:49@toomasv I think it is - you can validate the chain, therefore you can retrace what address has what amount of coins.
9214
16:50@dockimbel I have a couple of questions after re-reading the whitepaper:
* do you expect any kind of opposition from Solidity / Electron / webapps experts (since they occupied the niche you're aiming to take over)?
* will /C3 give user an option to create so-called "template contract" or "non-programming" contract or it doesn't make much sense, since it's just a trade-off?
* how /C3 source code (or any other Red or Red's dialect code) could be audited and proved? Isn't language too meta and dynamic for that (though I understand that /C3 won't be turing complete and it will ease the process)?
meijeru
16:53Good questions!
9214
16:53I just worry that attitude to a person in the community might change if everyone can see how "rich/poor" (s)he is.
toomasv
16:53@are1000 I can't argue because of my lack of knowledge. Just opinions.
are1000
16:55I may be wrong too, what I say holds for blockchains, but this is a ERC20 so it may be different
BeardPower
17:08@toomasv Everyone, who knows the wallet address of a person, can look how many assets the person has.
17:09Everyone can see, from whom, when and how much assets this person received and with whom, when, and how much this person transferred to others.
17:09It's a distributed public ledger.
toomasv
17:09@BeardPower OK then, is it a question of "To whom you show your wallet?"
BeardPower
17:10Yes.
17:10It's anonymous.

If you don't tell any body, who you are, nobody would ever find out, to whom the wallet is linked.
toomasv
17:11> If you don't tell any body, who you are

You mean, if you don't publish that THIS hash is YOUR wallet address?
are1000
17:13But if you don't, no one can send you funds.
BeardPower
17:14@toomasv Yes, they just see the address, but cannot see who is the owner.
are1000
17:14Making it kinda useless. Anonymity is not the main point of blockchains. Decentralisation is.
BeardPower
17:15@are1000 To send you funds, you only need the address, not a name.
17:15@are1000 It was for Bitcoin. BTC is a community project, Etherium is not.
9214
17:15but when tipping a person you already know who this person is
are1000
9214
17:16so if we want to be all anonymous, there should be some layer in between
are1000
17:17Therefore it is as anonymous as a github profile. If you pick a really hard to guess and long username, without interacting or giving it to anybody, you will have some kind of anonymity.
BeardPower
17:17Because you cannot tell who the owner of a wallet is, someone can launder his money. The AML laws state, that you need to do KYC, so they can see, who the owner of the wallet is.
9214
17:17a private map of name - wallet of some sort
BeardPower
17:17@9214 No. You just tip to the address.
are1000
17:18But if I give you my address to tip me, it is obvious whose it is.
BeardPower
17:18Yes, but you can send this address from anywhere you want.
are1000
BeardPower
17:19You can make it hard to track.
are1000
17:19The point is, that in the Red community, there won't be anonymity. Because if you want to be tipped, you need to make your address public.
BeardPower
17:19@9214
>so if we want to be all anonymous, there should be some layer in between
>a private map of name - wallet of some sort

Exactly. The company behind the RED ICO knows the owner of the wallet, because of the KYC.
9214
17:20@BeardPower it's not about personal identity, but about *community identity*
toomasv
17:20So, the company would know, but not the community?
9214
17:20few people here know my real name and who I am, but everyone knows me as a bunch-of-digits-guy
17:21@9214 or is it a girl? :girl:
toomasv
17:21I know perfectly well who you are - a crazy Einstein!
are1000
17:21That's what I'm trying to say - the layer of anonymity comes from the internet, not from the blockchains.
BeardPower
17:22@9214 Yes. When I want something to implemented from community member A, I know who I'm talking to, but the other community members won't, if I don't tell them, that I ordered something from member A.
toomasv
17:22@are1000 OK, giving up. I already declared my hash to the boss
BeardPower
17:23@toomasv
>So, the company would know, but not the community?

Yes. If you did not share your address with the community, they will never know, unless the company would leak it.
9214
17:24so it's either your greed or anonymity? :D
are1000
17:24Now he can see how much money you have @toomasv, can't ask for a raise if you keep to much money on it.
toomasv
17:25@are1000 I have spread my assets between ~10 addresses Ha-ha-ha
BeardPower
17:25@9214
>so it's either your greed or anonymity? :D

Yes :)
are1000
17:26https://hackernoon.com/privacy-on-the-blockchain-7549b50160ec
17:27And it is correct for all blockchain technologies - it is intrinsic to it.
17:27@toomasv and now he wants to fire you for money laundering!
toomasv
17:28@are1000 C'mon, it's perfectly legal!
9214
17:28and there's a reason in real world why people don't tell everyone how much they earn
17:28but there're also reasons why they tell how much they earn
17:29in any case they have an option
are1000
17:29@toomasv shh, he doesn't know it yet, but won't listen to your excuses!
toomasv
17:30@are1000 OK then, I'll do my job in good faith, never mind tokens! (or kitties)
BeardPower
17:38@toomasv
>@are1000 I have spread my assets between ~10 addresses Ha-ha-ha

And this is good practice. Etherium wallets are free to create, contrary to Ripple addresses (IIRC it's 20 XRP).

They would need to follow every single transaction to know your total wealth :)
9214
17:38so, 4 wallets for each digit in my nickname
BeardPower
toomasv
17:39> They would need to follow every single transaction to know your total wealth

And they need to know all the hashes!
But I am not inclined to publish these!
BeardPower
17:40Yes, as long as the client of your's does not tell others the address, they will not find out.
17:42And there are measures you can use, which will reveal, who leaked your addresses.
Phryxe
17:42What does Red staff need to know from ordinary user to recieve RED token? Does this include also KYC with scanned passport etc?
BeardPower
17:43@Phryxe Yes. They only take passports.
9214
17:44yeah, interesting question - will Foundation need someone's ID in order to give him/her community tokens?
BeardPower
17:44Picture of yours, image of your passport and a selfie of yours, holding the passport.
Phryxe
17:44Mine is too old :worried:
9214
17:44after ICO I mean
BeardPower
17:44@Phryxe Do you mean for the ICO?
Phryxe
BeardPower
17:45Ah ok.
17:45No, they don't need to know any ID of yours, for just receiving tokens from other people.
Phryxe
17:46What do they need?
BeardPower
17:47The KYC is just because at some point in time the fiat money needs to be exchanged for Ether and they receive Ether for their crowd-funding.
17:48@Phryxe Nothing. Once the Tokens are minted, everyone can create an Etherium wallet and receive these tokens.
17:49The token is listed on some exchange, so to buy tokens or trade them, the exchange needs to do KYC, not the company of the ICO/behind the token.
17:50E.g. if I have some RED tokens, I can send it to you. You don't have to do ANYTHING ID related :)
Phryxe
17:50What is needed to get a Ethereum wallet?
BeardPower
17:51You need to create one on the Etherium Blockchain. There are many ways to create one. I think I will have a wiki entry regarding this and more ready tomorrow.
Phryxe
17:52Thanx for explaining, BP!
BeardPower
17:54You are welcome. In the mean time, you can dig around here [MEW](https://www.myetherwallet.com/)
It's the recommended way, but you need to be careful of some things (also explained in my wiki entry).
17:54I will PM you and post it here, once it's online.
Phryxe
17:55Great!
dander
18:29The ICO whitepaper mentions 5 Red DSLs, so vid / view / parse / system... does it include C3 too? What am I missing?
9214
18:30math? :D
18:30View is not a dialect but a GUI engine
dander
18:33oh right. I think I meant vid / draw (assuming those are distinct)
BillDStrong
18:36draw is a DSL, though, right?
9214
18:39@BillDStrong yes
greggirwin
19:48The most-used DSL is so invisible, nobody ever lists it.
rebolek
19:49@greggirwin don't you mean do? It's not a dialect.
greggirwin
19:49I don't mean do.
19:50Can't find a secret handshake emoji for you @9214.
rebolek
19:50Ok, what a relief ;) Some people see do as dialect.
9214
19:51:hand: :wavy_dash:
greggirwin
19:56On privacy, this is a very new world, and we will be inventing it to some extent. In some cases, the goal is to acknowledge others publicly. But sometimes also privately. And "others" may not mean a specific person. It may mean an organization, a module, an article, a performance, an invocation of a function, etc. Ideally, we'll be able to choose what we want to be searchable and analyzable, and maybe we can even monetize our own information, but keeping some things private.

I haven't had time to think deeply through it all. Nobody has. But @BeardPower or other experts might have more informed views about how this will work, how some chains may be private, and inter-cha(i)nge can be made to provide anonymity, but not be easily exploited for misuse.
dander
19:57@greggirwin I was thinking maybe func, but I don't know if that's considered a dialect
9214
19:58I wonder if we can establish a semi-secret emoji-based guru language :question:
meijeru
19:59A (nearly) complete list of dialects, where blocks of data are interpreted in a specific way by the compiler/interpreter is the following:
- the preprocessor dialect,
- the parse dialect,
- the visual interface dialect (VID),
- which also uses the draw dialect
- and the shape dialect,
- the various spec dialects involved in defining vectors, images, bitsets, objects, errors, maps, functions and routines,
- the compose dialect, and
- the system dialect (Red/System).
Tell me if I have forgotten any...
9214
20:00@meijeru wow, thanks for clarifications, I didn't even thought about some of them. The questions is - what's the definition of a *dialect*? Any loadable data that is treated differently from normal (do) evaluation rules?
20:01why compose is a dialect though?
greggirwin
20:01@9214, I'm not speaking from a position of authority or inside information here, but have some thoughts on your questions.

> Do you expect any kind of opposition from Solidity / Electron / webapps experts (since they occupied the niche you're aiming to take over)?

Sure, until they see the light. They'll call us crazy, liars, black magic, "can't work", etc.

> Will /C3 give user an option to create so-called "template contract" or "non-programming" contract or it doesn't make much sense, since it's just a trade-off?

C3 will be a high level contract language, but there may be a lower level language as well, and surely then you can create templates that use C3..

> How /C3 source code (or any other Red or Red's dialect code) could be audited and proved? Isn't language too meta and dynamic for that (though I understand that /C3 won't be turing complete and it will ease the process)?

All of Red can't be formally analyzed, true. But it can't be compiled either. Still, we have a Red compiler today that can compile a *lot* of Red code, even if not all. Part of the design process is just that, how safe and provable can we make a language while still providing the capabilities needed to make it useful. C3v1 will help us learn that, and we can build over it, so you can choose power versus safety as your needs demand.
20:02@dander, bingo! It's the func *spec* dialect.
20:02@9214, well, we can't *now*, because you just told everyone about it!
9214
20:03@greggirwin :eyes: check your eyes dude ;)
20:03@9214 :japanese_ogre:
meijeru
20:04@9214 I think your definition is fine, and one could even go so far as to state that "normal" Red is the "do dialect". Compose is a dialect because parens are treated differently from other values inside the block.
9214
20:05so, dialect is any valid value that has special treatment?
greggirwin
20:05Compose may be a gray area. Hmmm. Do is not a dialect though.
20:06The do "dialect" is an oooooold argument.
9214
20:07Debate with do dialect might continue forever, because the main question is "a dialect for *what*"?
rebolek
20:07func spec dialect is great, but really in need of improvements.
9214
20:07For human thought - and human thought is a dialect for *what*? - ... - ... - 42!
20:08though, if at the end everything is a dialect for do...
20:09which is true, because everyone knows that at the very center of the Universe tiny Red 4.2 interpreter does its job to sustain this world
greggirwin
20:09@9214, precisedly.

@rebolek, it needs to be formalized, certainly. What do you think it needs? It can be extended, yes, and I agree in that regard.
9214
20:09:+1: for func extension
20:10and we all are just constellations of words in the milky-block
greggirwin
20:10Should change rooms for that chat though.
9214
20:11@9214 :flushed:
20:12I change my room to bedroom :sleepy:
greggirwin
20:13i^| (sleeping with one eye open?)
9214
20:14q-.-p (its earplugs, not ears)
greggirwin
20:15Looks like headphones/earbuds. I like it.
BeardPower
21:01Just a short info: Writing the entry is progressing well. It should be ready by tomorrow night at the latest.
greggirwin
21:03incr @BeardPower RED
dander
21:10thanks @BeardPower , all your information here has been really useful
BeardPower
21:11I'm happy to help :+1:
21:15@greggirwin Great dialect :smile:
rebolek
21:16that's a function :P
greggirwin
21:18[tip @rebolek and @BeardPower 2 RED each]
rebolek
21:18now, *that*'s a dialect ;)
greggirwin
21:22₡2RED syntax, for denominational tokens?
rebolek
21:25Shouldn't it be ₡3RED?
greggirwin
21:26Yes. Same thought here. Already fixed.
21:27Was thinking in terms of R2 money syntax initially.
BeardPower
21:35@rebolek
How could someone judge just based on this line? Based on the []? What if the dialect changed the incr function?
rebolek
21:41@BeardPower ok, it *seems* like a function or not very well designed dialect ;)
BeardPower
21:44@rebolek :+1:
rebolek
21:44One of the nicest examples of dialect is in the [Rebol bible](http://rebol.com/docs/core23/rebolcore-5.html#section-4.1) Buy 100 shares at $20.00 per share
BeardPower
21:46Yeah, I planned to ~~~steal it~~~ take inspiration from it for the trading software.

BeardPower
01:04Who is in charge? :smile:
>Note: only the Red team is allowed to make changes to this page, all direct changes by third-parties will be rolled-back.
02:19I finished the wiki entry. Please drop me a line, how we can add it. Comments are welcome.

[html5 version](https://github.com/BeardPower/Funade/blob/master/hello_cryptocurrencies.html)
[My wiki entry; asciidoc](https://github.com/BeardPower/Funade/wiki)
02:21Need to polish some some looks, but I hope it's of some help :D
Unfortunately the asciidoc mode on github is limited (if compared to the generated html5 version).
toomasv
03:36@BeardPower Wow! Wonderful! :+1:
x8x
03:50@BeardPower Amazing! Thank you so much! :sparkles: :sparkles: :sparkles:
Phryxe
06:14I'm not that involved that I want (not sure I would be able) to participate in the ICO. I think there are many users who want to know exactly what is required of them to be part of this new Red community (without joining the ICO) where you need RED tokens to be able to use things like Red IDE, chat, Dapps. I have never bothered with blockchains before. I understand now that the only thing you would need is an Ethereum wallet. I'm not quite clear of what I need to get one of those yet, maybe not even an email address. I will read the PB document more careful ...
PeterWAWood
06:25@BeardPower Your wiki entry is very helpful. I feel that we need to be a little cautious at this time. Please could you add a sentence at the top of your wiki entry along the lines of:

"These are my personal notes and are offered to provide an introduction to those members of the Red community who are unfamiliar with blockchains. They are neither endorsed by nor disapproved by the Red team.

Any product or service recommendations in this document are mine and are not recommendations of the Red team.

The User known as BeardPower."

If you could then create a page in the Red wiki, one of us will add a link on the front page of the wiki.
dander
10:00@Phryxe my understanding is that the Red community will continue as it has, and there will be no requirement to use RED tokens, unless you want to tip / receive tips, or do other things that involve transactions on a blockchain.
pekr
10:50The number of Tokens displayed on the website does not correspond with the blog article anymore, no? It says 48M of tokens, blog article says 60M of tokens, for recent phase?
ralfwenske
10:53Within a few minutes over 99% of 48 Million token were sold. Since registration 4 days ago I haven’t had a response from kyc process? Can someone explain what happened?
pekr
10:54However, so far, it seems like quite a success? If I count it corretly, then 48M of tokens, divided by 2750 ETH conversion rate, means something like 14545 ETH, times the conversion rate to USD, is cca 14,3M USD?
rebolek
10:54@pekr 60M for early bird and open sale: 48M for early bird, 12M for open sale
pekr
10:55early bird seems to be almost sold-out already?
rebolek
10:55It seems so, yes.
pekr
10:55nice!
are1000
10:56Will the token sale end sooner if all of the tokens will be sold out?
rebolek
10:56 And now its down from 356250 to 246250.
10:57@are1000 yes
ralfwenske
10:59I would be curious if anyone here has applied via kyc and received an answer?
are1000
10:59@ralfwenske I didn't but kyc is a manual process and it seems that a lot of people applied.
Phryxe
11:07@dander From the whitepaper: *Specific Dapps using Red stack will be built, allowing deeper interconnection between community members. Such 'community Dapps' would require RED tokens to operate.* I guess it depends on how involved you want to be, but I think most would want to use these things
* *a community chat system*
* *a community code exchange place*
* *collaborative code editor*
* etc
9214
11:18I guess Foundation will provide options for those who don't want to be a part of the new system
11:19the fact that all tokens are sold after Macau conf in batshit insane
11:20@ralfwenske per Telegram chat
> RED Customer Service, [12.01.18 14:13]
Thank you all for your support for Red Community. We received quite a lot of applications here. For those who passed their kyc verifications should expect an email from us. Please check your email inboxes and wait patiently. Thank you.

> RED Customer Service, [12.01.18 14:14]
Meanwhile please make sure all the pictures provided are clear and easy to read. Thank you all
are1000
11:20Thats why the transcript would have been really useful!
pekr
11:21I thought that Dapps is a general term for the distributed apps, kind of like Rebol/IOS was built. And hence I expected the concept being also RED independent?
9214
11:21@are1000 you haven't recieved official go-ahead for your bot yet?
are1000
11:21@9214 no :( Still waiting (and hoping it wasn't forgotten)
11:22RedBot is getting really lonely and sad lately :P
pekr
11:22Some ppl suggested, that they could at least send a confirmation email ...
are1000
11:23I agree @pekr, a lot of money comes into play here, confirmation email would be nice.
9214
11:23@are1000 looking at token sales rate, I guess everything will end sooner than we expect and there won't be much need in RedBot :(
are1000
11:25@9214 that is true... Be glad RedBot isn't authorized to read this chat tho, you would break his little, cold, metal heart 🤖
9214
11:26@9214 oh snap, accidental delete
11:27meanwhile I encourage everyone to celebrate by skipping to 1:44 and dancing as Red drones ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwI1j7sslYI
are1000
11:28🕺🕺🕺
9214
11:29@are1000 looks like blockchain
11:29[![image.png](https://files.gitter.im/red/blockchain/vm3X/thumb/image.png)](https://files.gitter.im/red/blockchain/vm3X/image.png)
rebolek
11:29[][][][][][][] blockchain
are1000
11:30⬛🔗
rebolek
11:30[]=[]=[]=[]=[]
are1000
11:31[]c[]c[]c[]c[]
9214
11:31
text
>> []=[]=[]=[]
== false
are1000
11:31
>> []c[]c[]c[]c[]
== true
9214
11:32@9214 :cop: suspects something
are1000
11:33
>> 👮
freeze!
rebolek
11:34c: make op! func [this that][true]
9214
11:34let's keep this room on topic though
are1000
11:34We definitely need a room for shitposting
rebolek
11:34There's sandbox
9214
11:35@are1000 we invite you to our gentleman's club https://gitter.im/red/sandbox
BeardPower
11:51@PeterWAWood Absolutely. Before posting it on the Red wiki, I also thought about adding such a disclaimer.
I will do some cleanups to my article and add it.
11:52WOW! Already sold out? :+1:
9214
11:52ah, totally forgot about @BeardPower's wiki
pekr
11:53Still seems to be 163,750 RED to go ...
9214
11:540.341%
11:54@BeardPower :clap: awesome job sir
BeardPower
11:54@9214 Thanks. Need to prettify it a little :)
11:55Nearly sold out, yes :)
x8x
12:04@9214 What Macau conference? link?
are1000
12:06Folks, what service do you think will be good to identify yourself and your address for tipping?
12:06What do you think about https://keybase.io ?
9214
12:08@x8x [here](https://gitter.im/red/blockchain?at=5a51d459ba39a53f1ae6704a)
12:08https://www.finwisesummit.com/agenda-en.html Day 1 Part 2
x8x
12:15@9214 Thank you! :smile:
9214
12:16[![image.png](https://files.gitter.im/red/blockchain/7URP/thumb/image.png)](https://files.gitter.im/red/blockchain/7URP/image.png)
12:16sneak peek from Telegram
x8x
12:19Did Gregg change his hair color to look more wise? He looks younger in the avatar.. hahaha :smile:
DideC
12:22Old photo (we all do that ;-) )
x8x
12:25Looks like most of the panels at Macau where about blockchain tech, lots of people there will have to revise their plan when they hear about Red... :-) Wondering how much Dubai went in to buy REDs .. Who are our new masters?
Ungaretti
12:29Am I missing something or did the Red project just raise something like 20 million US dollars?
48M RED ~ 17 thousand ETH ~ 20M USD
Is that it?
are1000
12:31@Ungaretti if the numbers ain't lying, then yep. Absolutely nuts.
9214
12:31https://www.oreilly.com/ideas/understanding-the-blockchain
rebolek
12:31Don't forget another 7M from private angel round.
9214
12:31@rebolek are you sure about 7M tho?
rebolek
12:32@9214 I'm not sure about anything. That's what the progress bar said.
9214
12:33those 20M tokens for private investors will be sold until ICO ends, the fact that Early Bird round started doesn't mean that they've sold everything
rebolek
12:33We will certainly know more when the ICO ends.
are1000
12:34hopefully
9214
12:34I wonder why 48M and not 60M as stated in red-lang article?
12:34> ICO (earlybird + open rounds) : 30% (60,000,000)
are1000
12:34inb4 Doc and the rest of the team disappears with all the money and start colonising Mars
rebolek
12:35@9214 but if early bird round is almost sold out, why do you think that smaller private angel at much better price would be still available?
are1000
12:3548M earlybird + 12M open round?
9214
12:37in any case we're already sitting on a pile of gold here
x8x
12:37I'm pretty sure some angels wanted more of the cake and went in in the early bird
12:38@9214 Didn't you just say that Nenad is in Macau? Lots of casinos there... ;-)
9214
12:39@x8x I told him to bet everything on red ;)
rebolek
12:40@rebolek is sitting only on a pile of shitty stats code he has to make working
x8x
12:41You sure he went for the roulette? I see him more texan cowboy hat and cigar at the poker table! :smile:
12:42How do you make text nice pinky??
are1000
12:42with /me command!
9214
12:42/me stuff
x8x
12:42@x8x me too
12:42/red stuff
12:43not work..
9214
12:44[![carl-nenad-poker.jpg](https://files.gitter.im/red/blockchain/7FTE/thumb/carl-nenad-poker.jpg)](https://files.gitter.im/red/blockchain/7FTE/carl-nenad-poker.jpg)
12:44@x8x ;)
BeardPower
12:45@PeterWAWood I added it to the Red wiki
[Introduction to ICOs, wallets and cryptocurrencies](https://github.com/red/red/wiki/Introduction-to-ICOs,-wallets-and-cryptocurrencies)
Ungaretti
12:48It took me a while to realize that the whole blockchain move was a good idea, as in "yeah... that's clever", but now I'm baffled!!
I have to read all the docs again. I just don't get it....
9214
12:48@Ungaretti https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greed all the docs you need :D
Ungaretti
12:51@9214 :smile:
Yet, even greed has its logic, and I can't follow this one.
x8x
12:53@9214 So Carl has the cigar and left the hat at the entrance like all gentlemans do, and Nenad is politely loosing the money :-)
12:53@9214 where did you get that one????
9214
12:54@x8x I have hacky hands and a beard of some sort :neckbeard:
Ungaretti
12:58@BeardPower Great work!! Thanks!
DideC
12:59@DideC did understand correctly how to use /me
are1000
12:59:tada:
x8x
12:59@9214 humm, too many secrets.. so is that happening now in Macau? Carl there with Nenad?? Would be awesome!
9214
12:59@x8x no, it's an older photo
x8x
12:59@9214 humm..
DideC
12:59@9214 Last Devcon ?
9214
13:00@DideC I believe so, yes
x8x
13:00It's not in Paris
13:00Canada then?
pekr
PeterWAWood
13:14@BeardPower Thanks. I've slipped the link in at the top of the page (temporarily). The page needs a bit of re-organisation so it will probably drift down the page later on.
BeardPower
15:18:+1:
9214
16:28@BeardPower am I right that cold wallets use air gap as protective measure? Are there any interesting researches in that area, from InfoSec perspective?
BeardPower
16:50@9214 Yes, you are correct.
I remember reading about siphoning off information despite the air-gap. Need to check on it myself.
16:52The cold wallets from Ledger uses [BOLOS](https://www.ledger.fr/2016/03/02/introducing-bolos-blockchain-open-ledger-operating-system/)
16:52Blockchain Open Ledger Operating System
9214
16:52There's a group of researches (Guri et al.) from Iran who specializes in this stuff
http://dblp.uni-trier.de/pers/hd/g/Guri:Mordechai?q=Mordechai%20Guri
16:53I mean in air gap infiltration, not in blockchains
16:54I wonder when they start to hack on cold wallets, air gap itself is a very interesting topic dated back to WWII researches, but it never has been taken seriously
BeardPower
16:54Thanks for the link.
Yes, the article back then was about dissecting the leaked information based on the spread spectrum, electromagnetic fields etc.
9214
16:55@BeardPower https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempest_(codename)
BeardPower
17:25Yeah, there were some other researches to read the content from the running HDD over the air gap. There is also an Open Source app to capture the content of old CRT monitors over the air-gap.
9214
17:26Tempest for Eliza, yep. There's also newer VB version (@greggirwin :wink: ) for Win somethere on the net, which works with modern monitors.
17:27and [system bus radio](https://github.com/fulldecent/system-bus-radio) of course
BeardPower
17:50I found the article: https://www.itworld.com/article/2859246/how-to-bridge-and-secure-air-gap-networks.html
17:51By using light and sound.
17:51From printers etc.
9214
17:52@BeardPower yes, it's the same group of researches I talked about, from Ben Gurion University in Negev
BeardPower
17:55Yep. So you have more knowledge on that, than me 🤓
dreamyToto_twitter
18:49Hello, am I wrong, or RED ICO is already an enormous success ? How many tokens sold right now ?
BeardPower
18:52About 68 Million.
18:52Yes, it's a huge success.
9214
18:58@dreamyToto_twitter we don't have official announcement from the team, but if we want to make some assumptions based on the numbers, then total amt of tokens sold is:
48e6 - 163750
47836250

ETH/RED ratio for Early Bird round is 1/2750. This means that we have that much ETH:
2750 %~ 48e6 - 163750
17395


ETH/USD ratio is roughly 1/1278. Hence, total amt of :moneybag: earned by the Red team:
17395 * 1278
22230810

~22M :exclamation:
18:59I'm twitchy that this 0.341% thing is just a glitch and we haven't really sold anything :(
19:00not to mention private investors, but we don't know stats on that yet
19:00someone please double-check me as it's midnight here and I'm quite sleepy :sleepy:
BeardPower
19:02Correct. 22 Million USD
19:13But it's 48e6 - 163750 / 2750 :D
Ungaretti
19:13Well, I can't figure yet how the investors will profit, but I'm pretty sure the community will get one hell of a full I/O and a really pretty GUI for Linux.
19:14Time to start my Blockchain notebook.
9214
19:14@rebolek probably knocked out himself and just drools on the table :D
BeardPower
19:15@Ungaretti By speculating on the RED coin, once it's traded on an exchange.
9214
19:15@BeardPower why?
BeardPower
19:15@9214 Because I don't get this calculation here: 2750 %~ 48e6 - 163750
9214
19:1548M RED issued, 163,750 left
19:16hence 47836250 sold
19:16yup?
rebolek
19:16@9214 actually I'm doing full scan on Jekatěrinburk timezone to pinpoint your exact location.
BeardPower
19:16
>> 2750 %~ 48e6 - 163750
== 47836250.0


9214
19:16@BeardPower lol, it's not Red :D
BeardPower
19:17It looked like it lol
9214
19:17in J lang ~ is a special kind of function which modifies another function on the left
19:17here it's %, or division
BeardPower
19:18Ah, thanks for the info.
9214
19:18and what ~ does is flips % arguments on both sides, so instead of 2750 % ... we have ... % 2750
19:18:muscle:
BeardPower
19:18I was just like: Is my Red version outdated again?? :D
19:19We need to work on our communication skills ;-)
greggirwin
19:19First, I'm older now, yes. :^) Most photos of me are from theatre, and might make you all think I was even crazier than you already do.
9214
19:20@rebolek darnit, blowed off the gaff with that midnight mention :eyes:
rebolek
19:20@rebolek is patient
9214
19:21@9214 is cagy
greggirwin
19:23Regarding tools and the need for tokens. Red is open source and always will be. This community can carry on, unchanged. The goal of tokens is multi-faceted and means a lot of R&D, but consider how we pay for tools today, e.g. Visual Studio, and how that might be different. If you want more commercial power tools, those may use tokens. If you want to use a Red-based SaaS, it could run on tokens. If you want to tip or be tipped with tokens, you'll need an account. It doesn't mean you would necessarily be locked out of a community chat program, but tokens might open special features, like github making you pay to have private repos. And you don't have to pay money to get tokens. You can be tipped for helping others in chat, for writing articles or documentation, or submitting PRs to the code base. And those are just a few basic ideas we know of today.
Ungaretti
19:27@greggirwin Will we have access to the development of C3?
19:28Rephasing it: How much of Red's blockchain features will be open-source?
9214
19:29@Ungaretti
> Red is open source and always will be

same applies to /C3
19:29I doubt it will be closed source, as it will make auditing and verification of the code much harder
19:29and make everyone doubtful about the project
BeardPower
19:30@greggirwin It would be great, if you could release a RED app for the Ledger Nano S :smile:
dreamyToto_twitter
19:30@9214 22 millions USD ! Amazing ! So the trip to Mars on SpaceX is going to happen ! Congratulations to all people that have worked for this ICO !
Ungaretti
19:30@9214 Makes sense.
BeardPower
19:30@dreamyToto_twitter Let's hope Ether is going up ;-)
19:31Or they will exchange back to fiat money soon.
dreamyToto_twitter
19:33@BeardPower for sure ! By the way, thank you very much for you wiki entry on crypto-currencies, wallets, etc... ! I'm really ignorant in this field !
BeardPower
19:35You're welcome.
greggirwin
19:43@Ungaretti, I believe C3 will be all open source as well, but it doesn't rule out the possibility of someone asking for closed-source versions, or forking it. We'll hope it all moves forward in a way that leads to more secure and accessible blockchain use.
19:44And if things ever slow down, I'll get to read the great wiki from @BeardPower! :^)
dander
21:42I have a bit of confusion around the connection between RED tokens and Ethereum. Was Ethereum just used to facilitate the ICO, and the RED tokens will live in a whole new blockchain, or are the RED tokens somehow connected to the Ethereum blockchain? It seems like Ethereum is not very efficient, so we wouldn't want to be reliant on transactions occurring in its blockchain, right?
x8x
21:46Just wrote this to someone asking, not sure it's correct.. "One important thing to understand is that the blockchain technology is still in its infancy, Red will allow to write smart contracts on the Ethereum blockchain because today it's where the tech is, but it is in no way thighed to it. Red will try to be a cross blockchain development framework and integrate new blockchain as they emerge or maybe develop it's own."
dander
21:49are Ethereum transactions necessary to send RED tokens?
x8x
21:55and will REDs be needed to deploy a Red written smart contract but then the smart contract will run with ETH or REDs? Running smart contracts need ether right?
BeardPower
22:18@dander The RED token is an ERC20 token. ERC20 is a specification of tokens on the Etherium Blockchain. The ICO is using smart contracts, which is code running on the Blockchain. E.g. distributing the RED coin, once the ICO is over. The RED foundation will use more smart contracts in the future, based on the coins/tokens. Such smart contracts are a feature of the Etherium Blockchain. Other distributed ledgers don't support smart contracts, so they chose to use Etherium. It's widely adopted.
dander
22:33@BeardPower Thanks, so suppose you want so send someone 1 RED as a tip, would there be an Ethereum processing charge associated with that? Or how is that gotten around? Are the ERC20 tokens running on some side system?
BeardPower
22:39@dander
>The ERC20 token standard describes the functions and events that an Ethereum token contract has to implement.

There other specs as well, but they are all running on Etherium.

>would there be an Ethereum processing charge associated with that?

Yes. The token has specific digits. Once the coin is released, you can add a custom token on MEW, where you have to specify the params of the token, including it's digits. These are used to calculate it's value compared to Ether. When you send a tip, you are sending the coin of this token, which has a value (as it is traded on an exchange). This value will be compared to it's Ether value and the transaction fees are calculated in Ether.

>Are the ERC20 tokens running on some side system?

No. ERC20 is only specific to Etherium.

22:41A token is just the vehicle to carry specific assets:
>A “token” by definition is a representation any fungible tradible good such as currency, loyalty points, gold certificates, in game items and more.
22:41So the RED coins is an asset, the RED token carries.
22:42It could also carry voting rights, voting power, code, anything you specify through the smart contract.
22:43Other distributed ledgers also have tokens and smart contracts, but not ERC20 tokens.
22:44If you are interested in how you can add ERC-20 tokens on MEW watch this video: [Adding custom ERC-20 tokens in MEW](https://myetherwallet.github.io/knowledge-base/tokens/adding-custom-ethereum-tokens.html)
22:47Software wallets like Exodus or hardware wallets like the Ledger Nano S, can handle ERC-20 tokens. To see the asset it carries, you need to implement an app. This app will manage the asset, so it will be manageable in the wallet software.
dander
22:52Okay, thanks for the link! The reason I ask is that I've gotten the impression that transaction fees have gone up a lot for the bigger blockchains, related to their own value, and the amount of congestion on the network. So for small things like tipping, I don't understand how that will scale. Especially as more and more applications/contracts are being added onto the network.
BeardPower
22:53To send a custom token, you need Ether on your wallet, as the fee is in Ether, regardless of the token you will send.
22:54The bigger the blockchain grows, the harder the mathematical problem to solve.
22:55That's why the fees increase. As this is a big drawback of many Blockchains, there are newer ones with no fee at all.
22:56Bitcoin is a generation one Blockchain, Etherium generation two. The actual generation is generation three. There are fast distributed ledgers, private ledgers, ledgers with privacy in mind and so on.
dander
22:57Okay, that makes sense. I read something about Ethereum also wanting to move from proof of work to proof of stake, which sounds like a good idea... but my "new information capacity" was starting to overflow :wink:
BeardPower
22:57To transfer the RED coin to another distributed ledger would not pose an issue, as you would just need to create a new coin/token and exchange the coins based on their values.
dander
22:58you answered my question before I asked it :smile:
BeardPower
22:58Yes. proof of work is just wasting resources for no value (besides securing the blockchain).
22:59@dander It's a gift, but also a curse ;-)
23:00Some d-Ledgers have no fee, because then you are pooling a transaction, you will automatically solve the mathematical problem for previous transactions.
x8x
23:01@BeardPower Is Hashgraph a third generation? is it good? is there anything similar in open source version?
BeardPower
23:01So you are part of the network yourself automatically, but you will not get rewarded for mining, as there is nothing to mine.
23:06@x8x Hashgraph is not a blockchain, as it's a different data structure for a distributed ledger. It's great, yes. It's not using proof of work, but proof of consensus. It's high security and very fast (about 250k+ transactions per sec). Other ledgers only have 30 to a few hundred.

No, there is only an SDK.
Hashgraph is from a company called http://www.swirlds.com/
23:12Well, there are man new ledgers currently in development, even Open Source. Telegram started their ICO for their new blockchain project: https://gramcoin.tech

Another broker is just designing a fully decentralized exchange with ultra-fast and low latency transactions usable for high frequency trading.
23:122018 is the year of d-Ledgers :D
x8x
23:14I'm new to this but trans/sec is so low on popular blockchain that they get unusable becuse the transaction fee grow proportionally and for many possible usage of smart contracts the speed makes them unusable. And lately companies are dropping support for bitcoin payment because of fee and volatility.
BeardPower
23:15Yes, these blockchains won't play a big role in the future anymore.
23:16The newest dLedgers will have > 1 Million transactions per second and will be completely without a fee.
x8x
23:16if it's good for HFT it should be fast enough for anything else! What's the name? :smile:
BeardPower
23:17It's in the planning phase, but the company did not publish any new information.
23:17No name, no details, just that it's for HFT :D
23:18It's from the SierraChart developers.
dander
23:18I was thinking that a decentralized exchange seems like a natural use case for smart contracts. Wouldn't it put the other exchanges out of business? What benefit will they still provide?
x8x
23:18Does the fact that current blockchain will be obsoleted pretty soon means that one has to follow market and continually move his investment on the latest tech? In short the value of Bitcoins will drop radically in a couple of years?
BeardPower
23:19>We do think the ultimate future of trading is going to be a decentralized model covering the globe based upon sound currency systems (not this Bitcoin/blockchain nonsense). Oh goodness, Sierra Chart says that blockchain is nonsense. Yes we are. There is a better model which gradually you will find out about.
x8x
23:21Waa.. that's the classic we're doing better but won't show you marketing ;-)
BeardPower
23:21@x8x The name of another new tech is the Telegram blockchain. It seems they are under a DDoS attack.
You can read about it here: https://techcrunch.com/2018/01/08/telegram-open-network/
23:22@x8x Yes, but the SierraChart guys know what they are doing. I'm just saying DTC proctol ;-)
x8x
23:22Bonus stupid question, how much is the risk that some big corp or government will have a quantum computer able to crack/break let say bitcoin?
BeardPower
23:27@dander
>I was thinking that a decentralized exchange seems like a natural use case for smart contracts.

The issue with a decentralized exchange is, that you need a high performance d-Ledger/transactions. Every tech at the moment is to slow, but this will change soon.

>Wouldn't it put the other exchanges out of business?

Depends on the big players. Banks, regulations and so on.

> What benefit will they still provide?

- Atomic swaps (free transactions on a private d-Ledger)
- Instant transfers
- Free
- High speed
- Bypassing the big exchanges (CME, CBOT etc.)
- Cheap feeds
- Reliable trading
- Stable and a common API






dander
23:28security is one of those things where it's really hard to know whether or not there's a risk. No one even considered that speculative execution in processors was a huge security hole for decades that it's been done (or at least anyone who figured it out wasn't talking about it)
23:29that being said, public/private crypto are so depended upon for so many things, they are very heavily vetted
23:29but I'm no expert
BeardPower
23:30@x8x If there exists, one day, a really usable quantum computer coming, it's broken.
There are already some d-Ledgers (using alternative/mathematical methods) available, which are not applicable to quantum computers. These problems cannot be solved by QC.
greggirwin
23:32As someone said, this is all new, in its scope and breadth. I see a goal of Red tools as being able to experiment and iterate faster, as we learn, to stay ahead of the bad guys.
x8x
23:33develop and iterate faster , one of the major power of Red! :-)
BeardPower
23:33@x8x Bitcoin is broken, because the underlying mathematical concepts are broken by the QC. Pretty much any of the public key encryptions, which rely on prime numbers, as the QCs are excellent on sieving (the process of finding these prime numbers).
x8x
23:35Does it mean you have 0 BTC ? ;-)
dander
23:35a lot of things seem to be moving to elliptic curve for crypto, which is supposedly resistant to QC ...leave that up to the mathematicians though
So many things would still break if prime factorization gets broken. It would (will?) be so insane
BeardPower
23:36@x8x It means, your assets are not safe any more as the QC is able to calculate your secret key.
23:36So basically, yes :D
x8x
23:37Good to know, very thanks!
BeardPower
23:37You're welcome.
23:38@dander Exactly. If your random number generator is not really random, your private key will not be secure either, as it relies on a REAL random number.
x8x
23:38@greggirwin will it cost REDs to deploy a Red written smart contract or will the Red SCDK need a license or where will the cost be?
dark-november
23:40@BeardPower Just curious, why do you spell Ethereum wrong, so persistently?
greggirwin
23:40[send @BeardPower 10$RED]
23:41@x8x, too soon to say on any of that.
BeardPower
23:42@dark-november Thanks! Damn it, sorry! It's grammarly and some other spellchecker trying to fix it.
23:42Of course it's ETHEREUM not ETHERIUM.
23:43@greggirwin Ka-Ching :D
23:44@dark-november And, when I notice it, I cannot edit my messages any more. And I'm getting old and slow ;-)
greggirwin
23:44My first smart contract will be for playing the ka-ching sound (and deriviatives of course, as @9214 will try to use cha-ching and steal my fuel).
BeardPower
23:44:+1:
dark-november
23:44@BeardPower Yea, I thought some auto-type was to blame. JFYI, your Wiki notes are also full of it :)
greggirwin
23:45So, recursively, the contract is run, makes me money, but also triggers a change which plays the sound, which...
BeardPower
23:45@dark-november Thanks! I will fix them ASAP. I had Grammarly running on MEW and it transferred my private key (test key) to their servers for spell checking....
23:46So be careful when using it ;-)
greggirwin
23:48Yow!
BeardPower
23:51@dark-november Fixed. Thanks again. An embarrassing moment :smile:
23:54There is a game called Etherium, the AI got its head through, while I posted it on github.

BeardPower
00:17@x8x
[Cardano](https://www.cardanohub.org) will use quantum resistant signatures.
x8x
00:29QC resistant, opensource and speed?
gltewalt
00:34 Tip @gltewalt 1M US Dollars
BeardPower
00:36@x8x No, not so much for speed, but QC resistant and open source. It's more feature oriented.
http://redbellyblockchain.io/ is a speedy one. About 600k transactions per second. Not open source.
x8x
00:37@BeardPower So with your knowledge in the field would you suggest Cardano as the basis to build a RED blockchain should Red Team choose to depoly its own?
00:40And something opensource, QC resistent, and blazing fast? Anything useful for IoT needs to be fast and ultra cheap on the transactions costs.
00:45The http://redbellyblockchain.io/ looks nice pity it's not OSS.. :worried:
BeardPower
00:47IBM is also working on a BC.
00:53Cardano comes from a scientific standpoint. IIRC it can do 10 transactions per second (was limited or is still limited). It's using multi-signature wallets and they also implement a voting center. Cardano may not be the best choice for RED, as it has fees and has a public ledger, but is open source and the smart contracts are coded in Haskell :) There coin is even called ADA :D

Well, there is no tech right now, which has all the 3 features.
01:02A good candidate for RED would be [IOTA](http://iota.org/). It's made for IoT, is Open Source, has free transactions, about 500-800 TpS, and supports e-Voting. The distributed ledger is called Tangle, which is a DAG (directed acyclic graph).
greggirwin
01:05And here I lamented the state of trying to keep up with JS. :^\
BeardPower
01:06Meanwhile, I'm sure, 3 new web frameworks and 2 new d-Ledgers were invented :smile:
x8x
01:14@greggirwin I'm trying to babel transpile, lint, minify, uglify some js.. what a waste of time... I need to google for about every steps because of exceptions here and there... insane! I wish we get a red->js transpiler soon! :worried:
BeardPower
01:18IOTA -> Internet of Things und Tangle
The IOTA foundation is working together with Volkswagen, Innogy, Deutschen Telekom, Fujitsu and Samsung.
From car charging systems to smart grids to data markets. With IOTA, nothing has to be mined and has currently the 9th biggest market cap https://coinmarketcap.com/

Would it be a nice fit, definitely. IOTA does not have smart contracts yet, but they are planned in 2018 through Oracles. Maybe this is the perfect time to get some Red into IOTA ;-) https://blog.iota.org/iota-development-roadmap-74741f37ed01
x8x
01:19@BeardPower Thanks, IOTA looks friendly
BeardPower
01:21Why? Because of the external feeding? IOTA does not has native timestamps, so they came up with Oracles.
x8x
01:22:smile:
BeardPower
01:23It's designed for IoT, so external feeding is important. We have to see, with what they will come up in the future.
x8x
01:23I thought Oracle the company was involved..
BeardPower
01:25:D No. They just call them Oracles (also on Ethereum) because they are some service, which pulls/pushes external data.
There is not really such a thing as a fully decentralized service, as there is always some centralized part involved: banks, sensors etc.
01:27Damn it, Etherium again.... geez this translator AI needs some lesson to be taught...
01:30So the first project: IOTA app made in Red ;-)
x8x
01:31So could I deploy my own IOTA blockchain for a swarm of sensors that needs to agree or keep track of something?
BeardPower
01:31Exactly.
01:31>Next Steps

> The GUI as it stands today is a MVP (Minimum Viable Product). As such it is not optimized and we have some features on our to-do list that we would like to add in the near > future (compiling IRI from source, perhaps even switch to a new front-end framework).

This is where Red comes in :D

01:32E.g. power plants communicate on the smart grid through IOTA, or car sensors communicate with each through IOTA.
x8x
01:33Oh, that sounds very useful and with Red it should be like code/deploy in a couple hours! :-)
BeardPower
01:33IOTA has e-Voting built in.
01:34So it could be used for the community voting.
01:36An example for sensor swarms: earthquake or tsunami sensors keep track of some parameters and they agree on a tsunami warning to be sent out.
01:37Or even delivery drones and what not :)
x8x
01:37@BeardPower you are of great help! Thank you! :smile:
BeardPower
01:37You're welcome.
01:38There is so much going on in this space, it's hard to keep on the pulse. I mean even Kodak is having an ICO for phtographer's needs or something like that.
01:40Everyone and his grandma is running something on a d-Ledger :D
x8x
01:46It would be game changer to go from idea to deployment in a quick timeframe, only Red can achieve that but I got more ideas in 5 minutes with the ability to deploy local IOTA blockchains than with what I could do with eth.. ;-)
BeardPower
01:47Oh, I forgot, IOTA is also quantum proof.
01:49So it fulfills 2 out of 3 of your points. Well, it's fast enough for IoT, so make it 3. :)
01:49Yes, and no fees!
x8x
01:50Could you improve speed by deploying many local blockchains each connected to a main blokchain or multilevel blockchain??
BeardPower
01:50They also hired a company to create a new security/cryptoalgo for them.
01:51>Could you improve speed by deploying many local blockchains each connected to a main blokchain or multilevel blockchain??

Yes, IOTA will become faster, the more nodes are registered with the Tangle.
x8x
01:53Me think hashgraph should not be patentable and there must be prior art, just not in the same field.
BeardPower
01:53The Telegram d-Ledger could perform millions of transactions per second, as it can split the blockchain into two on demand.
01:56Well, fear the patent trolls.
01:57It's a little different in the US with all these trivial patent stuff. I did not read into hashgraph. Need to do it over the weekend.
x8x
01:58I think I read somewhere they said that IOTA was the most similar to hashgraph
01:59I like IOTA :-)
BeardPower
01:59hashgraph is not using a DAG but has similar goals, right?
01:59The reference implementation is GPLv3. Do you still like it? ;-)
x8x
02:00Humm.. hard questions, I'll need to google.. ;-)
BeardPower
02:02The goal of Red: developers won't say "I have to code it" anymore, but "I have to Red it". Like "to google" being a synonym for searching.
x8x
02:05and then you're surprised that soon after you start to "Red it" it's "Ready" .. ;-)
BeardPower
02:07:+1:
02:07Found it:


How is Hashgraph different from IOTA? The technology used by Hashgraph differs in the following ways:

Hashgraph provides a total order on transactions, which means that you can use it as a multi-master database;
Hashgraph is Byzantine Fault Tolerant;
Hashgraph does not require Proof-of-Work;
Hashgraph reaches 100% certainty on the order of transactions; and
Hashgraph handles partitions which is important for how well it will work at scale.

02:08The total order on transaction was on the todo list for IOTA.
02:09>Byzantine Fault Tolerant

Can someone please hand me a tech-dictionary ;-)
x8x
02:10WTF..
BeardPower
02:10It's the generalized version of the Two Generals' Problem :D
02:11No worries, I'm just posting from wikipedia ;-) This tech needs a LOT of knowledge on graphs, distributed systems, security and what not.
x8x
02:161 and 4 are the same, no need for 3 because have 4, 2 = stays on, 5 not sure
02:16so if IOTA gets 4 we'll miss only 5
BeardPower
02:18Yeah, just was about to write the same. I need to read through the actual IOTA papers and their blog. I was only looking at the IOTA pricing recently ;-)
02:22I have a nice read for you: https://blog.iota.org/a-primer-on-iota-with-presentation-e0a6eb2cc621
x8x
02:24My neuron need some sleep, thanks again for you insight, much appreciated! I'm starting to start to understand a little on the subject ;-)
BeardPower
02:26Did I mention, that IOTA (IOTA foundation) is German (technology)? :D So this may be also something to consider.
02:26My pleasure.
02:27I also need to take a little break from this stuff.
02:32>so if IOTA gets 4 we'll miss only 5

IOTA also supports partitioning through offline transactions.
02:51Get tipped and tip others with IOTA https://medium.com/tipiota/tip-iota-earn-money-online-3789ddf154bb
02:52Also an application of the RED token/coin.
x8x
02:53Humm, IOTA getting smart contracts, but.. would you agree with this "Ultimately, the timestamp isn't important when executing a smart contract. What is important, is the accurate ordering of Transactions (which timestamps have traditionally been used to determine)." ? from here https://www.reddit.com/r/Iota/comments/7drnh0/iota_smart_contracts_and_potential_implications/
BeardPower
02:54Yes. How ordering is achieved is secondary. The outcome is important.
02:55A timestamp is just the tool to achieve ordered transaction. The outcome is the same, regardless of the tool used, to order transactions.
x8x
02:56maybe not having a timestamp recorded improves privacy for some things? so actually a benefit?
BeardPower
02:56A B C -> is this a timestamp? No. Is it in order? Yes.
1 2 3 -> is this a timestamp? No. Is it in order? Yes.
02:57Not really, as the time stamp does not carry any meta data with it.
02:58IOTA supports privacy through MAM:
>Masked Authenticated Messaging (MAM) makes it possible to have a secure, encrypted and authenticated data stream on the Tangle. As a first in this space, we ensure both data integrity and encrypted data blobs on our distributed ledger. This means that only certain parties with the proper authorization can read the data stream. With MAM we are already developing use cases aimed at supply chain and sensor data integrity.
03:00So if I don't have your authorization I cannot read your stream.
x8x
03:00Nice! :smile:
BeardPower
03:01I would only know some timestamps. What can I figure out with them? The time your transactions were registered on the Tangle. WOW I'm getting rich by selling this to some bad guys... ;-)
03:02No one? Damn it...
03:03Maybe I should keep the timestamps like some BTC in the early days lol
greggirwin
05:22@BeardPower, Byzantiine Fault Tolerant refers to Paxos, Raft, and other distributed systems models for achieving consensus in the case of possible node failures, bad actors, or message loss.
BeardPower
15:32@greggirwin Thanks! Time for me to refresh my knowledge on this topic.
dockimbel
16:37http://www.red-lang.org/2018/01/registration-special-offer.html
16:38For those of you who applied for early birds and were not able to participate.
9214
16:39:+1:
BeardPower
16:40Indeed.
9214
16:41@dockimbel something needs to be done with inadequate Telegram bot :(
dockimbel
16:41Telegram bot?
9214
16:41@dockimbel yes, it auto-answers EVERY message in Telegram room
16:41Red Customer Service 01
BeardPower
16:42Yeah. It makes communication unfeasible.
16:42It responds to whatever is typed.
9214
16:42and to whoever joined the group
dockimbel
16:43I was not aware of that. Let me check with the customer support team...
9214
16:43@9214 puny humans! :rage4:
dockimbel
16:56Bot disabled. Should be fine now.
BeardPower
16:59Confirmed. Thanks!

meijeru
11:00Has anyone seen [this paper](https://files.zotero.net/4291132099/Scripting%20smart%20contracts%20for%20distributed%20ledger%20technology.pdf) on scripting languages for Distributed Ledger Technology?? It seems highly relevant.
9214
11:01@meijeru I get 404 with this link, are you sure you shared it on Zotero?
11:01or maybe not you but whoever the author is
meijeru
11:05They are developing their own language "Plutus, a strictly-typed,
parametrically polymorphic language similar to Haskell and
ML."
9214
11:06https://kar.kent.ac.uk/61162/ ?
meijeru
11:08@9214 That is the title and abstract. The correct link for the text is [this one](https://iohk.io/research/papers/scripting-smart-contracts-for-distributed-ledger-technology/)
9214
11:09@meijeru there's PDF download button on the right
11:09yeah, it's the same paper
11:10interesting, bookmarked for future reading
meijeru
11:12The link for Plutus is [here](https://github.com/input-output-hk/plutus-prototype/tree/master/docs/spec)
planetsizecpu
11:50@dockimbel @greggirwin My English level is not very high, I am a great user of the Google translator, but today I have seen your presentation and I have managed to understand the scope of the project, I think you are doing a great job and that it will give a great boost to the language, I must recognize that it was worth pausing in the development to get funding to continue the project, now is the time to thank you for having that vision of the future. Continue like this because we believe in you.
BeardPower
11:55@meijeru They are developing/working on great tech, like Cardano, Daedalus, Etherium Classic etc.
meijeru
14:39I found the Cardano website very instructive.
greggirwin
16:59Thank you @planetsizecpu. :^)
17:02And thanks @meijeru ! I'll read the PDF as well, as this is just the kind of thing we can do with Red, where dialects offer features and constraints needed for different use cases.
rickstefanowski_twitter
20:03Hello everyone, I am trying to understand the economics that affect the price of the Red Token. Since there is no staking/mining, how does the price of the token go up? And how does the change in price affect the usefulness of the dapps powered by it?
greggirwin
20:19Welcome Rick! It's a brave new world and, for the time being, you should take anything said here as "possibilities". Most of us are Red developers, not blockchain or crypto experts. @BeardPower is our resident guru in that area, but none of us can speak officially for Team Red at this time.

That said, if we consider that RED is a utility token, and we deal in tokenomics, price is something of an external concept. We don't know yet exactly how this will all play out in different areas and Dapps, but the whitepaper and ICO page list some initial thoughts.

For the simple case of tipping someone, or some *thing*, it's up to the user. If a token-cost is set for a service, Dapp, or resource, that may change dynamically. The value of tokens will depend on a particular exchange and demand, yes? So if you need tokens to run a Dapp, but only have ETH, the "value" of the token to the holder is how many ETH you trade, and what value those ETH, in turn, have in some legal tender. And if I provide a service or sell a tool, I will need to adjust my token prices over time to stay competitive.
20:27Longer term, in the field in general, I can imagine huge potential for predictive analytics, reputation systems, and more being applied to dynamic valuation of tokens in their respective economies.
BeardPower
20:42@rickstefanowski_twitter Hi Rick. RED is a utility token, which means, that you can buy services with RED, unlike with speculative tokens. The more coverage and adoption of the RED token will be, the more valuable it will become. The RED token will also be tradable on an exchange, so it's basic market economics of offer and demand. The RED foundation is keeping some tokens, so price can be stabilized through buy back programs, vetting and tipping.
20:51Regarding change in price and dApps: The RED token is an ERC-20 token (it's based on Ethereum). When the RED token will rise in price, the rate to other currencies will also change. You might get more Ether for it and the transactions will get cheaper, as it's value is higher than before. dApps would be worth more, as they are represented in RED tokens and you have to pay with RED tokens for them. Changing the RED token back to fiat currency, you will make more money, as the higher the RED token is valued over time, the more valuable the dApps will become.
rickstefanowski_twitter
21:42I would say a lot of speculative tokens are utility tokens that are not yet serving their purpose. The goal is for the speculation to transition to where tokens sometimes serve as equity and as a dapp specific fuel. In ethereum many dapps either collect the fuel and redistribute it to token holders. Others burn the token as it is used for fuel. I assume the same options will exist here? This will lead to a fluctuation in the price of Red so fees will have to priced is something stable and converted at time of use for fuel. This will require a smart contract tied to a dex with liquidity, all done in the background. Otherwise the barrier for use will be too high. Am I thinking correctly about this?
21:42Also, what type of dapp development interest is there in this community? What teams exist, and what types of dapps are they looking to build?
rebolek
21:51As I understand it, the goal for Red team is not to build dapps, but build tools for building dapps.
greggirwin
22:23@rickstefanowski_twitter, as I understand it, the same options will exist for RED, but the general Red community only learned of C3 and the ICO project when everyone else did, so there hasn't been public discussion of detailed fee models. Gitter chat on Red is focused on the Red langauge. This room was added when the ICO was made public, but we are not a speculation based community. Many of us are new to blockchains in general. At this time, there are no public Dapp dev teams or public Dapp projects in the works.

The way I see it, the main barrier, for RED, will be ease of use; can we make it easy to pass tokens around, and start giving them meaning in the context of what we do.

BeardPower
00:09@rickstefanowski_twitter Let me rephrase it. There are equity tokens and utility tokens. The former represent a stake in a company, stocks, voting rights, debts... You cannot buy a service from the company, which issued them. Utility tokens are not designed for speculation. There serve as a coupon or represent value to buy services with it. As explained by @rebolek, Red/C3 is a tool to create smart contracts in the Red language. It's a tool to create dApps. You can use the Red token/coin to buy a service (paying a coder to implement a feature in Red you want to see), or use the tokens a a tip or voting right. There would be the possibility to create other tokens on a different ledger, which offers transactions without a fee.
00:16It depends on the contract, if tokens will be burned. New tokens could also be minted.
rickstefanowski_twitter
00:16how is the emission rate of new tokens determined?
BeardPower
00:22I can't answer this, as I'm not from the RED team. I just know based on the whitepaper, that not all tokens are distributed.
00:24The contract is also not open sourced at this time.
rickstefanowski_twitter
00:26How are the ICO funds being stored? Is there an escrow or is the team in control? Can they provide the addresses so I can see the funds on the block explorer?
00:27Has there been any marketing to the cryptocommunity? How much money has been raised so far, and where do you expect most of it is coming from?
sptorin_twitter
04:20token sale status on https://ico.red-lang.org/ broken, anyone can fix?
gltewalt
05:40https://www.damiencosset.com/trying-understand-blockchain-making-one/
dockimbel
05:59@sptorin_twitter It's fixed, you need to wait a bit for cache propagation and reload the page.
kns1966
06:20Similar article in R: https://www.r-bloggers.com/building-your-own-blockchain-in-r/amp/
pekr
06:2748M tokens sold for the Early bird. But the website says Earlybird + Open round - 60M. Does it mean, that 12M is for the Open round? OTOH the final term is 15.1., which is, today ....
x8x
06:29@pekr Correct, 12mio for open round starting tomorrow 08:00 UTC
greggirwin
06:45@rickstefanowski_twitter, you can see the token distribution breakdown at http://www.red-lang.org/2018/01/red-here-we-go.html. The team has been overwhelmed by the demand, and the associated, manual KYC processing that has to be done, but I'll add your questions to the Q&A wiki so they aren't lost. There are no public answers I can point you to at this time.
dockimbel
10:02@rickstefanowski_twitter This is a tech-oriented discussion group, you should better ask those ICO-related questions on the [official Telegram group](https://t.me/redofficial).
pekr
16:10Website should be updated, no? It says 16 days to go, which might mean the open round, but still shows the progress bar for the early bird (48M with 0 left to buy). Or I just don't undrestand, thought that 12M is correct value for an open round ....
rebolek
18:11It will probably be updated when the open round starts (tomorrow 8:00 UTC)

pekr
05:36It already causes confusion, as can be seen from the Telegram chat - it looks like the Open round is open, while no ICO is left. Should be fixed ;-)
endo64
06:32Now it's correct, fixed I guess.
greggirwin
06:34Web site is fixed now.
BillDStrong
06:36Remember to do a hard reload of the page in your browser (ctrl + F5 for Firefox) if the page isn't showing correctly for you.
pekr
07:29I know pretty much how to refresh a page ;-)
greggirwin
07:33He's just being helpful Pekr. I think there was some confusion for users on Telegram, and he cross posted here in case the same was true here. He has no idea how old you are, and how long you've been around. ;^)
pekr
07:49Well, I report stuff for a reason. Wonder how such a website glitch could slip from anyones radar. Especially in case, when I can see negative reactions and confusion over at Telegram. I wish RED is a success, so I am nervous a bit. Sorry for overreaction then ...
greggirwin
07:51Reports are always welcome Pekr.

> Wonder how such a website glitch could slip from anyones radar.

Ummm, global team, working under a deadline and multiple aspects of the ICO all at once? Just a guess. ;^)
pekr
08:24Anyway - first day of the Open round sale, and "almost sold", 13% remaining and still 15 days to go. Nice!
greggirwin
08:24Yes!
pekr
08:25Wonder what the Red Team phase means - a round, where Red Team (FullStack + support team) are able to buy, but no external party?
08:25And following is the Red Foundation - here I expect anyone can buy?
greggirwin
08:25Those aren't "buying" rounds, but allocations set aside from the total.
08:26Once the ICO is done, others will have to wait for tokens to appear on secondary market exchanges.
08:27So the team and the foundation have some tokens guaranteed, that they can use in the community.
pekr
08:29Well, it kind of runs in "rounds", as it is being limited by the exact time period .... For the "Red team", there also seems being some rule, that you can't sell .... Well, I'll wait and see :-)
greggirwin
08:33Correct. The team can't sell their tokens for 12 months, but the foundation can use theirs.
BeardPower
11:23Whaaaat? The open round is sold out??
11:23:+1:
x8x
11:26@BeardPower , you're late to the party! hahaha ;-) it was like 75% gone in the first 5 minutes..
BeardPower
11:30Yeah. Crazy.
11:31Are most people in for a fast cash out?
rebolek
11:31I think so.
BeardPower
11:32The Ether amounts are pretty high.
are1000
11:32Still, Ether dropped almost 300$ yesterday/today
11:32Another one of the "mini-crashes"
11:33From ~1400$ on Jan 13, to ~1000$ now.
BeardPower
11:33Just a normal retracement. And caused by the Brexit news. Every crypto went down except a few. Paaaaannniiiic....
rebolek
11:34What Brexit news?
BeardPower
11:34The EU offered GB to cancel the Brexit.
rebolek
11:35Oh, I totally missed that.
are1000
11:35Me too, I'm reading about it just now
BeardPower
11:35So many pulled the plug and cashed out.
are1000
11:36There is a lot of talk in UK about second referendum.
BeardPower
11:36Yep.
11:37Fiat money, Gold, every asset went bananas.
11:39Ether was on an all time high, the network is saturated (20k pending Txs), so there is not much demand right now. There are better alternatives like IOTA, NEO, NEM...
11:43As @x8x pointed out in a PM, there was also some news about Korea kicking exchanges. Korea has strict KYC. You need to link your bank account to your crypto account. China kicking ICOs and regulations like MIFID2 kick in rapidly. So people do, what they always do: panic.
rebolek
11:44Korea requires registration, but does not ban exchanges https://cointelegraph.com/news/south-korea-clarifies-position-on-crypto-regulation-amidst-confusion-in-mainstream-media
BeardPower
11:45I'm just waiting for some news flash on TV: the crypto bubble exploded....
rebolek
11:45....again
BeardPower
11:46@rebolek That's exactly what I'm talking about. Some BS is talked in the media, people believe it and panic.
pekr
12:31So, let's vote so many times, till the democrary fits our point of view? :-) Not that I was pro-Brexit :-)
12:35Now, in today's news, some talks about France and regulation of cryptocurrencies. Kind of turbulent times, isn't it? https://www.ethnews.com/cryptocurrency-regulation-essential-for-new-economic-order-says-frances-le-marie
12:36Or maybe just a normal worries ... to anything new and out of the scope of influence of old :-)
9214
14:45Remaining Tokens: 0 RED
are1000
14:45:tada:
9214
14:46for some reason I misread it as one hell of a full I/O, 64-bit support and Linux GUI :smirk:
14:47or Red team already packing up and flying to Mars with all tokens :(
are1000
14:47Maybe both???
14:47OMG this is so fitting
14:47Red: first Martian language
9214
14:47ayy :alien:
are1000
14:48this is absolutly not a coincidence
9214
14:48@are1000 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Core_War
dockimbel
14:48http://www.red-lang.org/2018/01/red-token-sale-success.html
rebolek
14:50All tokens are sold, cryptomarkets started panicking :)
9214
14:51Rebol community in 2011 (when Red project started):
14:51[![image.png](https://files.gitter.im/red/blockchain/xD9I/thumb/image.png)](https://files.gitter.im/red/blockchain/xD9I/image.png)
14:51Rebol (Red?) community in 2018:
14:52https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RykG4Zs8j6U
pekr
14:52All tokens sold? What about Red Team, Red Foundation and Marketing ones? Or do I understand the website incorrectly?
rebolek
14:53I am of course talking about all tokens available for sale.
9214
14:54maybe we all drunk too much peyote :cactus:
pekr
14:54OK then .... Can we get Cyphre involved now, so that he updates View engine to support latest block-buster games development? ;-p
are1000
14:55I can already see the headlines...
14:55CD Project Red Switches To Red
14:55Red Dead Redemption Finally Goes Red
dockimbel
14:55@pekr We can get Cyphre, but he's probably busy with some projects.
9214
14:55Gabe decides that it's time to ditch Source engine and rewrite HL3 in Red
are1000
14:56Gabe decides that it's time to write HL3 as a parse dialect
9214
14:56or rather a *lambda* calculus DSL
14:56with keys, hats and crates
rebolek
14:57I'm more interested in things like fix for https://github.com/red/red/issues/3156
pekr
14:57@dockimbel it was kind of a joke of course :-) Eager to see now, if it all means, you guys can find some great coders like @qtxie is, so that we can move forward to next levels ....
dockimbel
14:58@pekr That's the idea. ;-)
pekr
15:00@dockimbel I still kind of think, that @qtxie is kind of a miracle. He was all new to Rebol land, and is so good. Hopefully there are other talents around. Not much was left out of the former Rebol community. I mean - ppl willing to contribute, change current jobs, etc.
are1000
15:01@dockimbel will Red Foundation hire people remotely? Are there going to be public postings?
9214
15:07okay, so we have roughly 22M USD from Early Bird round (I took 1 ETH = 1300 USD here)
1300*>.48e6%2750
22691500

and roughly 6M USD from Open Round
1300*>.12e6%2500
6240000

not to mention Private investors, but here, without official numbers from the team, we can only speculate
15:08I'd say Red team now sits on a pile of ~30M :moneybag: ;)
are1000
15:09Hopefully the money won't burn too fast :crying_cat_face:
Phryxe
15:11I wonder what kind of people invested in RED.
are1000
15:11@Phryxe people, that were not afraid to invest at least 1200$ into not-released-yet language.
9214
15:12I think big part of China blockchain community was involved
pekr
15:12Isn't it more?
15:13Ah, OK, yes, around 30M, maybe slightly less. Let's see, what is the ETH value though, there were some turbulences and it wen 300USD down lately
are1000
15:14@pekr it only went under 1300$ today.
9214
15:14as I understand this turbulences happen every year, assuming that Red team has support from crypto experts, they should've predicted that and do what is necessary
Phryxe
15:15@are1000 Yes, but if there are IT people or economists trying to make a profit ...
are1000
15:16@Phryxe of course there are such people. And I don't want that to happen, because that shouldn't be the point of it, but it will - because it is a tradeable good.
9214
15:18I wonder if KYC team can show off some stats
Phryxe
15:18It depends on what influence the non-tech persons will have on Reds development.
lpvm
15:18Hi, I didn't participate in the early bid, how to buy some tokens now? How much more expensive are they now?
9214
15:19on exchange markets I believe
are1000
15:19@lpvm For now all of the available tokens have been sold
lpvm
are1000
15:19as @9214 said, now you have to wait until RED is available on some exchange markets or buying it directly from other people
lpvm
15:20what exchange markets may they be named?
rebolek
15:20too soon to tell
lpvm
15:21what was the price of each token for early bid and open access?
15:21just to have some relative basis for comparison
9214
15:21@lpvm
Private Investors             : 1 ETH => 3400 RED
  Early Birds                   : 1 ETH => 2750 RED
  Open round                    : 1 ETH => 2500 RED
lpvm
15:21ok, thanks
pekr
15:38I don't understand - there are still 3 token categories left to buy, no? Red Team, Red Foundation, Marketing/Strategic - still 120M of tokens to go, no?
are1000
15:39@pekr no, those are tokens that the Red Team, Red Foundation and Marketing/Strategic will receive
rebolek
15:40@pekr if you will issue your own pekr coins, let's say 100 of them and decide to sell 40 of them, you will keep 60 of them. It's the same situation.
pekr
15:43No, the figures don't fit imo:

Private investors             : 10% (20,000,000) with a 3 months lockup period.
  ICO (earlybird + open rounds) : 30% (60,000,000)
  Red team                      : 15% (30,000,000) with a 12 months lockup period.
  Red Foundation                : 35% (70,000,000)
  Marketing/Strategic           : 10% (20,000,000)
are1000
15:4440% of tokens is sold in Private Investors and ICO rounds
9214
15:44why?
pekr
15:44Those figures give you 100%. Private + Early Bird + Open rounds, make for 40%, 80M. It does not look, like it equals the spread for the Red team, Red Foundation and Marketing/Strategic?
are1000
15:44But it doesn't have to be equal.
pekr
15:44So the rest is the ICO raised, without the need to be sold?
are1000
15:45only the ICO raises funds
15:45so the ICO is only 30% of all of the tokens
rebolek
15:4640% were available to sell during ICO to raise money, 60% is reserved for other purposes.
pekr
15:46Ah, OK, thanks, understood ...
are1000
15:46the rest (60%) is "magically created"
pekr
15:46Thought they are going to sell another 120M
rebolek
15:48No, they now have ~28000 ETH and 120M RED.
are1000
15:49~~Wow, if my calculations are correct (they probably ain't) - 1 RED coin after starting the markets will be worth around 1$ - this is my official prediction.~~
rebolek
15:52How did you get that number?
are1000
15:52Absolutly non-scientifically.
dockimbel
15:52@are1000
> @dockimbel will Red Foundation hire people remotely? Are there going to be public postings?

The Foundation should not hire, but can sponsor. Yes, the Foundation should post regularily about its activities related to Red project.
rebolek
15:53@are1000 ah, ok :)
are1000
15:54Well, here it goes:
15:54maximum amount of ETH that was sold during inv+ico is 28136.898395721924 = 20000000/3400 + 48000000/2750 + 12000000/2500
15:55average(?) ETH price in RED is then 2843.2416091861837 = 80000000/28136.8983
15:56Oh wait, well, I just noticed a critical flaw. Scrap what I said :P
9214
15:57seems legit
[x =: +/ 20e6 48e6 12e6 % 3400 2750 2500
28136.9
   80e6 % x
2843.24
16:03but doesn't make much sense :D
maximvl
16:39>Open Token Sale Status:
>Total Token Issued: 12,000,000 RED
>Remaining Tokens: 0 RED
16:39jeez
9214
16:39@maximvl I told you :)
maximvl
16:40I still can't get my coinbase account verified lol
9214
16:40c'est la vie
16:41"what you should buy yourself is another pair of :jeans:"
toomasv
18:13@ Wouldn’t be much of use with REDs anyway
18:19@maximvl
rebolek
18:20It would be for buying ETH to participate in the ICO.
toomasv
18:23Sorry, can’t manage on phone. Happend to read that counbase is not good to hold tokens.
rebolek
18:36It may not be, but it's usable for buying cryptomoney.
toomasv
18:41Yes, but you can’t use bought tokens. But they are working on it
rebolek
18:41Right, but that's expected.
toomasv
18:45Good then :)
ralfwenske
22:49Fascinating to see holdership of 80 million RED tokens:

https://ethplorer.io/address/0x76960dccd5a1fe799f7c29be9f19ceb4627aeb2f#pageSize=100&tab=tab-holders

onetom
03:19Here is a standalone tool which u can use offline too very easily for dealing with HD wallets / 12 word seed phrases and the keypairs derived from it:
https://github.com/iancoleman/bip39

it even generates QR codes.

(it was mentioned on https://dapphub.chat/channel/dev)
greggirwin
04:35Thanks @onetom !
04:37Looks like you need to have Python installed.
onetom
04:41i tend to forget about such attached baggages, since you have these major popular dependencies available on macOS by default...
greggirwin
04:42Yeah, I just had to install Java not too long ago, for the first time.
BeardPower
09:57MEW is still the best option. Keys are generated locally, are encrypted and it also generates QR coded. Additionally it can be run completely offline, if you prefer it. You only need a browser.
10:01You always have the option to generate your keys and the wallet address by using PGP/GPG and the Ethereum tools to create the wallet on the blockchain.
x8x
10:06You only need a browser. I wouldn't take that lightly, check your browser's extensions!
are1000
10:07To be honest, when you look at holders of the RED token, there isn't that much of them.
BeardPower
10:07@x8x Let me rephrase it: a browser with JavaScript enabled. No extensions needed.
are1000
10:08For a total of 34 holders? It ain't that much.
x8x
10:08Right, but still either disable all extensions or make sure you trust them before you load your wallet
BeardPower
10:10@are1000 Yeah, when looking at the amount of Ether for most transaction, it seems there were only big investors involved.
10:11@x8x Sure, that's why you can use the GitHub code as well. Completely offline.
10:12Check the signatures of the website to make sure.
are1000
10:13There is contract source code available at etherscan.io?
BeardPower
10:14Yes.
10:16https://etherscan.io/address/0x76960Dccd5a1fe799F7c29bE9F19ceB4627aEb2f
dockimbel
10:34We shall put the source code of the contracts on a public github repo soon. I wanted to avoid making it easy for attackers in case we left some bug there.
10:40We got only [one attack](https://etherscan.io/tx/0x3af172ce8b87fe7b9daec2e648e8319a13dabc3eb9876cfbb6dd572a4a70cdac) attempt so far, someone trying to gain access to a MultiSig wallet.
maximvl
10:55@toomasv @rebolek wait, what do you mean you can't use bought tokens? =\
rebolek
10:55@maximvl I never said that.
maximvl
10:57>@toomasv
>Yes, but you can’t use bought tokens. But they are working on it
>@rebolek
>Right, but that's expected.
10:57wat, I don't get you guys
rebolek
10:57@maximvl the infrastructure for tipping etc is just not there yet and also RED is not listed on any exchange yet.
10:58it's temporary
maximvl
10:59you mean Red tokens, I know I can't use them, I tried to get some, lol
rebolek
11:01yes, RED = Red token, Red = language :)
maximvl
11:01I thought you are talking about Ether
11:01anyway
rebolek
11:03Ah, no. You can of course user ether as you want right now :)
BeardPower
11:08Just a little info, which also is one of the reasons Cryptos are going down: https://thenextweb.com/hardfork/2018/01/16/bitconnect-shut-down-closed/
ghost~5680c5f416b6c7089cc058a5
11:14@dockimbel Congrats on the successful ICO. Will the roadmap be updated anytime soon to reflect how the development will now proceed?
dockimbel
11:58@BeardPower https://www.coindesk.com/pboc-official-calls-for-wider-ban-on-chinese-crypto-trading-report/
11:59That's the main reason of current crashing.
12:00@nc-x Thank you. It will take about a month to update it, as I have to travel to Silicon Valley next week, then there's a big break for Chinese New Year.
12:03Moreover, the current change in China wrt to OTC trading will most probably affect our plans. We'll see in the next days/weeks if a regulation comes or not.
BeardPower
12:22@dockimbel Absolutely. There is a lot going on lately. Regulation has to come and will come. This was unavoidable. It's not about banning Cryptos in general, but banning unregulated exchanges. The majority of exchanges will get bitten for not being compliant with the regulations and the law. KYC, AML, MBL and so on. Therefore it's crucial, that the RED coin/token is listed on a regulated, compliant exchange.
12:30I don't want to advertise an exchange here, but there is one coming up this year (it's currently in it's ICO state), which will be fully regulated and compliant. It will also offer ETCF (exchange traded crypto funds; just like an ETF), so it would be possible to get the RED token into an IT basket, which would be very beneficial.
12:31Liquidity is also backed up through Forex and other liquidity providers.
dockimbel
12:44Well, 2018 will probably be the year of regulation for the crypto world. Making things clearer for everyone is welcome.
BeardPower
12:53Absolutely.
12:54I don't know, if you can give some info about that, but it would be appreciated: Are you still holding your funds in ETH or did you exchange them to fiat currency, after the funds came in?
dockimbel
13:02@BeardPower I am not aware of any way to convert such large amounts into fiat, I don't think it's possible. So still in ETH.
rebolek
13:03Maybe @dockimbel converted to fiat all at once and is sole reason for the huge price drop ;)
dockimbel
13:08@rebolek If only it was that easy. ;-)
rebolek
BeardPower
13:17@dockimbel Well, not all at once right, but in daily batches of 500k Eur. Would take a while.
dockimbel
13:35@BeardPower You think you can land that much at once on a bank account without any trouble? Many banks would just freeze the account once they know that the money comes from selling crypto-assets. Then for the few banks that are whitelisting a few exchanges for such operations, you still have to provide the full KYC for justifying the sources. Can easily take weeks, if not months for them to process it. And I'm not even talking about the countries where once converted in fiat, you'll have to give up half of it in taxes. ;-) So definitely not a simple thing to do.
BeardPower
13:42@dockimbel The exchange based in Austria has a daily limit of 500k, a monthly limit of 5 Million Eur and an overall limit of 100 Million Eur, through SEPA and if you do a video ident KYC. The KYC takes about 5-15 min. You will have to pay some fees, as it's not a trading exchange but just fiat<->cryto. Well, I just know that the EU court decided, that the exchange from fiat<->currency is a tax free act, but yes, it's not some simple thing to do. Everyone and his mum want to cash in on it.
https://cointelegraph.com/news/breaking-eu-court-rules-bitcoin-exchange-is-tax-free
are1000
13:43@dockimbel so there is a possibility to sponsor and pay in ETH instead of fiat money?
dockimbel
13:44@are1000 Definitely.
BeardPower
13:57@dockimbel I don't see a problem with the bank, if they are compliant with KYC, but of course you would need a bank prepared for such amounts. The funds would not be personal income. but the income of the foundation/company, right? It depends on the country your company is incorporated. There are some countries, which don't have taxes, if you will reinvest into the company, which you will do.
It's not easy and it's time consuming, but doable.
dockimbel
14:00@BeardPower Yes, possible, just long and complex, as one has to go through many hurdles.
BeardPower
14:05@dockimbel On this, I totally agree on. I really hope you get over every hurdle without any bruises. And, as already pointed out, there is always the option to pay/sponsor in Ether.

ghost~5680c5f416b6c7089cc058a5
12:05@dockimbel

> ... It will take about a month to update it ...

:thumbsup:
gltewalt
19:15I’ll accept US dollar to PayPal account
9214
19:17will help for food :ramen:
gltewalt
19:24Only па́сха

9214
14:39https://techcrunch.com/2018/01/15/a-modest-proposal-for-ethereum-programming/
14:41https://github.com/HappyFunCorp/Webthereum
are1000
14:41(If you want to read the former article in a better format, here is the origin: https://happyfuncorp.com/whitepapers/webthereum)
BeardPower
14:42So who is going to code a RED app for my Ledger Nano S? ;-)
14:43IIRC there will be a RED wallet at launch.
14:43I'm curious if this will be a software wallet as well as support for the hardware wallets.
are1000
14:44Pfff, ledger nano s? I'm storing my keys on floppy disks.
14:45What? I can't store them next to my magnet collection? *shudders*
BeardPower
14:45I still have my C64 with a 5 1/4 floppy drive and a Datasette. Security through "retro" :D
are1000
14:45Now this is a task for the future - connect C64 to ethereum blockchain!
14:46I don't know where mine C64 is, I think my mom gave it away (when I was much younger)
14:46but I still have the manual!
BeardPower
14:46Oh, no!
14:46Nice :)
14:50@are1000
>Now this is a task for the future - connect C64 to ethereum blockchain!

First wee need to get Red running on it :+1:
rebolek
14:51Right, screw 64bit, let's go 8bit!
BeardPower
14:51That's the spirit!
rebolek
14:52No Spectre, no Meltdown, it's the future!
BeardPower
14:53And instant "booting".
9214
14:54I'm sorry to butt in, but let's keep discussions on topic :smile:
BeardPower
14:55Sure thing. I tend to go OT easily :+1:
15:04A nice book on Ethereum for the interested reader: https://www.gitbook.com/book/ethereum/frontier-guide/details
https://ethereum.gitbooks.io/frontier-guide/
dockimbel
15:21@BeardPower We are hardware wallets users here too, so we'll make sure that the Red wallet handles the main models.
BeardPower
15:25@dockimbel Great!
15:44If you need some testing -> count me in.

gulshankrish_twitter
12:07@gulshankrish_twitter
Could anyone please tell me about this? I am doing a research work on public permissioned blockchains and came across BIGCHAIN DB. I would like to know what is the criteria or who selects or in what basis the nodes are participated? As far as i know, public means anyone can participate like bitcoin, but permissioned public sounds confusing to me, so permissioned public means there has to be certain condition or rule which the node has to be met to participate, so my questions is who sets this criteria and in what basis this is done? Could anyone elaborate to me this please?
Thanks you,
Gulshan
greggirwin
13:40@gulshankrish_twitter, @BeardPower is our resident blockchain expert, but BigChainDb looks to still be in its early days, and their docs indicate that node criteria are based on rules set up by the consortium behind each cluster.

> A consortium requires some form of governance to make decisions such as membership and policies. The exact details of the governance process are determined by each consortium
BeardPower
14:38@gulshankrish_twitter It's not like permission for nodes, but for assets stored on the blockchain. A user can publish metadata and some condition, which defines who has access and how someone has access to the asset.

Bob owns the asset X. He publishes some metadata and conditions on how to get X. A simple case would to set the price of the asset.
Alice wants to access and read X. She reads the metadata and conditions about X, and she makes a payment (or whatever is needed) using the required fiat or crypto currency.
Alice transfers her access token (in this case, a payment receipt) for X to Bob.
Bob verifies that the access token is valid, and starts a handshake to create a shared session key with Alice.
Alice participates in the handshake.
Alice and Bob now have the same session key.
Bob encrypts X using the previously calculated session key and shares it with Alice, either on- or off-chain.

https://github.com/bigchaindb/privacy-protocols
14:43Some nice article, you should read: https://www.coindesk.com/information/what-is-the-difference-between-open-and-permissioned-blockchains/
14:44Permissioned public blockchain just means, that the blockchain supports permissions/ACLs like filesystems or databases do. When it comes to access for nodes/adding nodes, like @greggirwin already explained, it's decided by the owner of the ledger. A consortium, company etc. Ripple is not a community project, but a project of different banks, exchanges and brokers. It's the "anti-cryptocurrency".
14:48Another article: From google cache, as the original site has a redirection issue http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?source=hp&ei=ffllWubqFY7YwQLmhafwDA&q=cache%3Ahttps%3A%2F%2Fblog.darwinlabs.io%2Ftypes-of-blockchain-public-private-and-permissioned-5b14fbfe38d4&oq=cache%3Ahttps%3A%2F%2Fblog.darwinlabs.io%2Ftypes-of-blockchain-public-private-and-permissioned-5b14fbfe38d4&gs_l=psy-ab.3...1322.1322.0.1726.2.1.0.0.0.0.57.57.1.1.0....0...1c.2.64.psy-ab..1.0.0.0...0.SirUs-oHzYY
14:56These hybrid ledgers/blockchains are sometimes, as in the article, called "Consortium blockchains/ledgers".
15:04It maybe is confusing you, because "permissioned public" is not the correct wording. They are just called "Permissioned ledger/blockchain". Permissioned, companies, consortium, community,... all mean the same: the ledger/blockchain is owned by a group of entities. They decide with votes, stakes, etc.
Another good article: https://medium.com/@BrettNoyes/public-permissioned-and-private-blockchains-3c32965e33c9
15:04public, permissioned, private
gulshankrish_twitter
15:05Thank you @greggirwin and @BeardPower .
BeardPower
15:08You're welcome.
9214
18:06https://github.com/red/RED-token :O
BeardPower
18:48It's the sourcecode of the token.
9214
18:48I know, just had a knee-jerk reaction when I saw JS in /red repositories :D
BeardPower
18:53This sin needs to be atoned for.
9214
18:54take this RED token from my filthy hands, o mighty :hand: :red_circle:
BeardPower
19:04https://youtu.be/WTdO-w3xnpw

x8x
21:06Stripe also dropping support for Bitcoin https://stripe.com/blog/ending-bitcoin-support
ne1uno
21:47https://www.scribd.com/document/369896985/Weiss-Cryptocurrency-Ratings new thing?
BeardPower
23:18Bitcoin as a currency is dead because of the high fees. Micro-Transactions have more fees than the actual transaction is worth. Also it's slow and not scaling. The future is d-Ledgers like IOTA, or Stellar. Fast, low latency and free or at least cheap.

9214
08:07@maximvl have you, by any chance, PRed RED on habrahabr or somewhere else? :D More than 250+ Russians joined Telegram group all at once, and I wonder what caused this.
maximvl
09:17I did nothing, it's all hackernews I guess
09:17also you can ask them ;)
rebolek
09:21What was on HN?
10:23This flood of new "users" seems really suspicious.
9214
10:43indeed
10:55could they be bots? :O
rebolek
11:03With their stock-photo-like icons? I guess so.
11:03@9214 so they aren't *your* bots? ;)
9214
11:32I got it
11:32it's other 997 faces of @greggirwin
BeardPower
11:34I guess these are not real :D
9214
11:39it really looks like bot spam
11:39pics, names and usernames for some of them just don't match together
11:40and lots of stock photos
11:40and no one of them said anything
BeardPower
11:46Some always try to scam people, who participated in an ICO on telegram.
9214
12:34botapocalypse stopped at 996 users
12:34and we haven't seen 997 faces of @greggirwin
12:34:shipit:
12:34Gregg, you want to tell something to us?

x8x
02:32https://www.stellar.org/blog/2018-Stellar-Roadmap/
BeardPower
02:38Stellar has an "issue". The transaction are not free, like with IOTA. Nevertheless they are very cheap.
02:41But this is interesting: https://www.stellar.org/lumens/stellar-partnership-grant-program/
02:45I'm curious about the [Light Chain](http://www.lightchain.one/): >100k tps, but it has mining, which means it's not free.

In this regard, nothing can beat IOTA right now.
dander
03:14I made an account on kraken, but it looks like they aren't allowing new verifications. I think I read somewhere that binance isn't either... Any other recommendations for exchanges? I was going to try bittrex next
greggirwin
07:42@9214 there is a lot I want to say, but it will have to wait just a bit.
gltewalt
07:49Ok, it’s been a bit
greggirwin
07:50A bit more. Patience Grasshopper.
BeardPower
12:56@dander What do you need? Just exchanging fiat currencies to crypto currencies or the possibility to trade?
qtxie
13:36[![9a54d0f138f76d88b09d74f2fe2ed13.png](https://files.gitter.im/red/blockchain/Vs3D/thumb/9a54d0f138f76d88b09d74f2fe2ed13.png)](https://files.gitter.im/red/blockchain/Vs3D/9a54d0f138f76d88b09d74f2fe2ed13.png)
13:36First attempt to write a red wallet. ;-)
9214
BeardPower
13:37YES. Ledger Nano S :+1:
rebolek
qtxie
13:46I want async I/O to make this kind of app responsive.
rebolek
13:48we all want async I/O ;)
dander
16:06@BeardPower I am interested in some trading, for RED when it becomes available, and probably some other things. I was able to get a working binance account finally.
x8x
18:23@qtxie progressing rapidly, nice!
BeardPower
22:13Watch out and secure your keys https://www.coindesk.com/coincheck-confirms-crypto-hack-loss-larger-than-mt-gox/

x8x
00:30wow !
ne1uno
02:42https://crypto.robinhood.com/
02:43Today, cryptocurrencies are coming to the Robinhood platform. We believe that cryptocurrencies have the potential to fundamentally reorganize the way money works from the ground up, putting power previously held by financial institutions directly in the hands of the people. http://blog.robinhood.com/news/2018/1/24/dont-sleep
BeardPower
10:50@ne1uno Robinhood is okay, until you read the fineprint: for US residents only and only US assets are free to trade. All other have high fees. Minimum deposit is 1k. Trading Cryptos won't be any cheaper than on the fair exchanges.
10:55@ne1uno The try to compete with Cobinhood https://cobinhood.com
unchartedworks
12:25Is it possible to deploying a web server app in Red/C3? The web server doesn’t run on a specific server.
x8x
16:52@unchartedworks C3 is about writing smartcontracts on the ethereum blockchain, that is still in development. There is no web server in Red yet but there is a good one in Rebol https://www.cheyenne-server.org/
unchartedworks
18:01@x8x Thanks for your help. I didn’t express me very well. Let me clarify it. To be more abstract, I want to know if it’s possible to develop distributed software on EVM. If it’s possible, I think there is no need to use a server to deplopy it.
BillDStrong
18:03That is what C3 is about. Keep in mind C3 is not complete, or even released yet. And the long term goal is for it to be agnostic, so it will work on multiple blockchain VMs.
unchartedworks
18:24Thanks. I guess I have to check Solidity instead. When C3 is available, then I could rewrite it in C3 if it’s neccesary.

pekr
13:55Does anyone know, what are they talking about? "Senior management within the DasEcosystem are preparing to to launch a user-friendly cryptocurrency exchange, radically different from anything in operation at the moment, which “is going to shake up this industry”. It is likely to be launched either to coincide with DasCoin’s launch onto public exchanges on April 28, or before that big date in London." - https://netleaders.news/2018/01/24/new-project-apex/
BeardPower
16:24@pekr Sure. They are pegging a token/coin to fiat money (USD) and you can get money out through clearing coporations (like bonds). Take a look here (starting at 15:40) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTmbvRwOVMA

Oldes
9214
12:30@Oldes should be ohm
Oldes
12:32Right.. Sorry. :)
gulshankrish_twitter
13:44i heard the same approach of this project apex in black hat community as well.
13:45make an announcement that something really amazing will be published in a few months' time; one will get a lot of attention in the media. It does not matter if the actual announcement is not so earth shattering after all; the main goal has already been achieved.
BeardPower
13:51Of course. It's a lot of marketing gibberish. In fact, there are plenty of similar projects coming in 2018. Is it nice to have? Absolutely. Is it earth shattering? Not really.
13:51There is already a token/coin/blockchain pegged to fiat money (USD, EUR, YEN): [Tether](https://tether.to/).
rebolek
13:54*supposedly* pegged
BeardPower
13:56@rebolek Of course. There are already rumors, that the backed fiat money is far less than the crypto assets.
rebolek
13:56Exactly.
BuilderGuy1
22:55Tether might be in a bit of hot water... https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-30/crypto-exchange-bitfinex-tether-said-to-get-subpoenaed-by-cftc
BeardPower
23:30Regulation WILL hit hard on 90% of the exchanges in 2018.
23:31Missing or lacking KYC, no money service licenses for taking fiat money, no audits...
23:31There are only a handful compliant exchanges.

gltewalt
02:07Is that money that you can only buy Fiats with?
BeardPower
02:15No, you can buy any other crypto currency with it as well. It's just a crypto/fiat pair.
02:22It's meant for exchanging fiat money to a stable crypto currency called Tether. It's goal is to always be around 99% of the value of the fiat money., so you get a blockchain enabled "fiat money".
02:23Without the need of a bank account to keep your money "secure".
02:29E.g. I want to pay you 10k in fiat money. It takes a bank and a few days until you get your money. I can sent you 10k in Tether and you will receive it in a few seconds. You can than go to an ATM and convert it into fiat money or spend the Tether in shops, which take Tether, or you can transfer it as fiat money into your bank account.
02:32The future plans are quite ambitious: credit cards, debit cards, ATMs, shops and much more, which will convert crypto currencies into fiat currencies and vice versa.
02:33Other projects want to officially peg a crypto currency to real value like fiat money, metals and so on.
02:42The anti-cryptocurrency XRP https://ripple.com/ (a protocol) provides transferring fiat money in seconds. It's run/supported by many banks. A wallet will cost you 20 XRP, which is about 20 bucks at the moment.
gltewalt
02:54How long have you been studying these things? Seems like so much to learn about.
BeardPower
11:31@gltewalt A few years. I followed BTC since it's inception. Yeah, there is something new every day. The technology is still in its infancy, but 2018 is an important year. Not only because of regulations, but also of the adoption of DLT (distributed ledger technology) by big companies.
11:35I also work(ed) in the financials (implementing back-/frontends in COBOL, C/C++).
9214
11:36@BeardPower and no K/Q?
11:36https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K_(programming_language)
BeardPower
11:38@9214 No, but there was also some PL/I code around from the 70ties :smile: I never touched it much. They also used a lot of Fortran.
9214
11:39@BeardPower it's okay. It's over. You're in Red heaven now :D
11:39everything here just builds itself at runtime
BeardPower
11:40Yeah, it feels like. I finally have time to create my UI widgets. These are part of convincing some other developers to use Red instead of C# :smile:
11:41I thought Haxe was cool, with it's macros, but hell, they are so complicated in comparison to Red!
11:44Another goal is to use Red for "serious" game development in the future. It takes a lot of work. Libraries, tools and also Red 1.x, but I think we are getting to it.
11:46Having a package manager running on a DLT is a great idea. IIRC there are also plans for pushing updates and patches (OTA for mobile devices) through DLT.

9214
11:18telegram group needs a clean-up
geekyi
15:26What happened to that group?
9214
15:27idk, China users spamming with cryptic QR-codes, trolls getting out of control with GIF-fest, no admins or feedback
geekyi
15:35Telegram groups can get nasty if not policed.. I'd suggest something like @groupbutlerbot or @shiiinabot, among others..
pekr
16:54Is that group still needed? I thought it was just for the ICO phase?
9214
16:55I don't know, was there in case someone is interested in Red, not in RED ;)
x8x
16:55Probably should stay as a discussion group for RED tokens
greggirwin
22:52I haven't been on there while traveling, but will see if I can do some cleanup. Thanks for the alert.
23:17https://www.trustnodes.com/2018/01/30/us-state-senators-introduce-bill-exempting-tokens-securities-laws
BillDStrong
23:22Using a DLT means we could also offer a "store" for paid modules, on the same DLT, shouldn't it? Paid for by RED tokens? :smile:
greggirwin
23:23Yes, that's come up in conversation a lot this past week. Not even "paid" modules necessarily, but the ability to reward useful modules that don't have a paywall in front of them. Also becomes a reputation system.
BillDStrong
23:28And of course, we could create sites on the DLTs, like several projects are doing, and create an App that lists those sites in some form, say a Desktop metaphor, and then we would have recreated REBOL View. (Sorry, couldn't resist. But some of these ideas are not bad.)
greggirwin
23:31That's the idea behind Dapps and, yes, a deesktop/browser to find and use them. All powered by RED tokens.

BeardPower
02:56@greggirwin The US wants to get in, before the lose it again to other countries.
greggirwin
02:57FOMO. It seems no one is immune.
BeardPower
02:57The idea with module rewards sounds great: in app rewards/purchases 2.0
greggirwin
02:58And they are locked, immutable, and can prevent things like the leftpad-pocalypse.
03:00Can also have licenses that are smart contracts, which have other contracts to notify users of pending expiration, source escrow when something is no longer supported, and so much more.
03:01Throttling, automatic or agent-based transitioning to a premium account. So many ideas.
BeardPower
03:03No more waiting times, invoices or other paperwork. Tokens received, module available.
03:03All managed automatically by smart contracts.
BillDStrong
03:04The smart contract could allow a library to be depended on other libraries that charge, and have all parties paid without needing to do any wore work than including the library.
greggirwin
03:05Yup. And can be analyzed, from *both* sides. Who is paying how much (if I'm the author). Who am I paying, and can I compare to other modules to get a cost benefit (if I'm the consumer).
03:06@BillDStrong, yes, and assembling, vetting, organizing groups of modules into systems, where the top level contract has a fee for doing that work, and others are compensated directly.
03:06Or even value added resellers and white label systems.
BillDStrong
03:12And documentation could be set to be paid as a contract for such things, so outsourcing could be "friction-less" as Facebook calls it. You could even set up advertising to work in such a way that tutorial bloggers can be automatically paid based on number of buy ins from that blog. And my mind keeps going further down the rabbit hole.
greggirwin
03:13Optimizing things will be interesting, because of overhead. We can do side chains, but we could also implement Dapps that accrue local (trans)actions into groups. e.g. every "export to PDF" or "generate random logo" action is logged, and when you hit N actions, it submits a transaction to the blockchain. Or you could just track them, show the user in their free app, and have a Donate button they can click to support you. Or maybe nagware gets more aggressive as the token debit adds up.
03:14@BillDStrong, right now it's a black hole for ideas. :^)
BillDStrong
03:22@greggirwin Those would mostly be App specific. But looking at real world App Stores, time units are popular, as well as a full purchase. So providing an easy primitive for those options, then some point or unit system that the app can represent however they want, then provide some default values internally. This can also be used for analytics for usage info. And would allow for "Pay for only what you use." plans.
03:23This also seems ripe for providing a way for users to be paid for their information, if we think hard enough about it.
OneArb
16:59@greggirwin I am getting confused reading through @BeardPower post set.
As community manager you refered to @BeardPower as the channel blockchain expert.
Is @BeardPower representing the Red Foundation and/or Fullstack corp views in any official capacity?
9214
17:01@OneArb no, he just a knowledgeable individual
OneArb
17:48@9214 Thanks!
9214
17:49*he is* of course, too late to edit :(
BeardPower
17:56@OneArb As @9214 already answered, the posts are just my own view. What exactly is confusing you?
greggirwin
19:12@OneArb, @BeardPower is our current leading, and most helpful blockchain expert in the community. He doesn't work for FullStack or represent the foundation at this time, but when we get to the point of awarding tokens, he will surely get some for all his efforts. Any community member may help, be acknowledged, and earn reputation going forward, by participating in the community how they want and are able to.

We're in the very early stages of organizing all this, with the success of the ICO, and will try to put some information in an upcoming blog article that provides thoughts on how some of it will work.
BeardPower
19:58I just found this interesting paper: [A Novel Method for Decentralised Peer-to-Peer Software License
Validation Using Cryptocurrency Blockchain Technology](http://crpit.com/confpapers/CRPITV159Herbert.pdf)
20:30There is also a German startup in this field http://license.rocks
BuilderGuy1
21:21@greggirwin I can see such automated transactions as being awesome for businesses but individuals might be overwhelmed with so many micro-transactions and concurrent agreements. There would need to be some kind of "super-spreadsheet" to keep track of what is pending/processing. I'm still very new to all of this. Does such a management system exist? Or can a wallet organizes this well enough already?
BillDStrong
21:26@BuilderGuy1 Presumably Red/C3 will be a great way to build such a system. Keep in mind this would really only be a view over data contained in the block-chain, so it could present a simple view for totals, a detailed view for taxes, and other views for analytics, or other applications. The chain is immutable, so fits naturally in a single data multi view scenario.
21:28So multiple apps can view it from pretty much anywhere. And choosing a tax provider can become as easy as authoring the decryption of your data, if that were implemented.

greggirwin
00:27@BuilderGuy1, the goal is to make the blockchain disappear behind the scenes, because otherwise it will be overwhelming to users, and they will make expensive mistakes. So you just use apps, not concerned with any of it. You have a wallet loaded with tokens, and sometimes you need to top it up if an app tells you there aren't enough to run. Some may be "Free", though, in trade for using your information to resell, or to show ads, like FB and Google do today. One difference being that we can provide an easy option to pay a little in order to avoid ads or get more privacy. The apps is the same either way. It just looks at a smart contract that checks whether you're a paid user, or want ads or to sell your soul for free service.

At the end of the month, you could view an invoice, which may be another Dapp, which looks at the blockchain and shows you a summary of all your charges, for each app used. Each total could be a link that drills down into the details for that service. Not sure why X cost so much? Drill down.
00:29The contract details just appear to the user as a EULA and options settings in the app.
BuilderGuy1
02:54I can see a ton of very valuable ways that this tech can be utilized. I can also see a ton of people, who don't have any habits formed around monitoring a multitude of contracts, losing their shirts. At least for awhile until they catch on....which could take awhile. People's habits will need to change dramatically to absorb this new way of managing their money. I have been living in an apartment for the last 5 years. In that time, I have received a homemakers magazine every month for 5 YEARS ! Not once in that time did the actual subscriber (the previous renter) check their credit card statement close enough to see what transactions were actually being charged. That person has a PhD !!!
02:56We live in interesting times! I know I have had to do a ton of research to let this stuff start to sink in (it is :-) but 99.999% of people don't have a freakin' clue whats about to happen.
02:57I look forward to it (I'm starting to do some ethereum mining too. still setting up...) but I brace for the impact of all the things that I don't expect.
OneArb
10:58@BeardPower I was confused reading what I view as opinions and the entire opinion / fact mix set being vouched for as expertise by @greggirwin in his capacity of community organizer, or is it in a personal capacity?
BeardPower
14:36@OneArb I see. Once the Red Foundation and the new company is formed, I'm sure that there will be official views and people, who represent both on an official capacity. For now it's kind of a brainstorming 🤓
greggirwin
19:33@BeardPower +1. @OneArb, few people here know blockchains in depth, but we're all going to learn a lot, very fast, going forward. Red has plans and a direction regarding blockchain technology, specifically Red/C3 and the RED token that was created for use with blockchains and Dapps. Beyond that, we are trying to imagine how it will all work, and what we'll build.

Building a cross chain compiler will be a challenge, but is pretty much straight tech. Take a language and compile it to different blockchain VMs. Red already does this with OSs, so we can be confident in how that will work. *However*, what happens next is like asking what kind of apps people will build with Red. Or asking what the internet might be used for back in 1993.

DideC
11:52What will be the impact or China enforcing the ban of blockchain and ICO for the RED project ?
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-02-05/bitcoin-tumbles-below-8000-china-launches-new-crypto-crackdown
greggirwin
16:55It shouldn't affect us, except that Chinese residents won't be able to trade RED on exchanges, or it will at least be more difficult. On the other hand: https://www.trustnodes.com/2018/01/30/us-state-senators-introduce-bill-exempting-tokens-securities-laws

ghost~5680c5f416b6c7089cc058a5
07:48Even in India, the present and future of cryptocurrency is uncertain.
I think by the end of 2018, the laws regarding crypto around the world should be settled, so lets see.
BillDStrong
07:54You have an awful lot of faith in governance, don't you?
ghost~5680c5f416b6c7089cc058a5
07:57Nope, Not really! But some clarity would be good. Here in India, people are not even sure if Bitcoin is legal or not. Sometimes [this is the news](https://www.express.co.uk/finance/city/913101/Bitcoin-ban-India-news-BTC-price-crash-cryptocurrency), then [it is this](https://www.forbes.com/sites/sindhujabalaji/2018/02/06/india-is-not-banning-cryptocurrency-heres-what-it-is-doing-instead/#7b26bc7c6f7c). Too confusing.
BeardPower
11:49Of course Bitcoin is legal. It's just about compliance to the rulings of the various countries in regards to anti money laundering and other regulations. If a company is compliant, it never was illegal.
11:52India won't recognize it as legal tender. This does not mean, that Bitcoin itself is illegal.

rebolek
15:10https://xstar.io/market?tokenId=&symbol=RED_ETH
15:26https://xstar.io/news/info/511
BeardPower
16:26Let's see how it trades in the future.

viayuve
07:26so I don't understand lot of stuff on xstar lol
07:26how can you buy and what is the price/red token
07:27also token and coin are different ??
rebolek
07:28You need to make an account there and transfer some funds in ETH, price is from 0,0007ETH/1RED up.
viayuve
07:36okay cool wher should i buy eth
rebolek
07:37With usd/eur...?
viayuve
rebolek
07:38there are different exchanges, like coinbase and others
viayuve
07:38what you guys are using
rebolek
07:39I used one local Czech exchange in the past the uses CZK, so not much of help for you :)
viayuve
07:43no problem bro I think I will do some googling and than buy some eth
rebolek
07:44see this [wiki](https://github.com/BeardPower/Funade/wiki) by @BeardPower he has some good tips
viayuve
07:50so if I am getting it correctly buy eth than buy red and wait untill it grow some $$$ but token does not mean coin right??? also red will release red coin in future.
rebolek
07:51no, red token is red coin
viayuve
07:54than why the hack on https://coinmarketcap.com/ site from your text-table shows tokens diffrent that coin its confusing.
rebolek
07:57tokens are "hosted" on some blockchain "platforms", RED runs on Ethereum blockchain for example.
viayuve
07:58why I can not buy red directly why eth? also red is eth based means it will allow mining am I correct (based on google info)
rebolek
07:58because no exhange offers RED for USD directly yet
07:59you can mine ETH, but there is limited supply of RED
viayuve
07:59so eth is unlimited ??
07:59so red coin will be mining proof right?
08:01no one will able to mine red why mining in first place concept is very weird
09:09https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-difference-between-mineable-not-mineable-and-pre-mined-cryptocurrencies-Which-one-is-the-best-to-invest-in-for-beginners
09:10in which category red coin can be listed
rebolek
09:31Premined
viayuve
10:02phew :sweat_smile:
BeardPower
11:34Red is a token, not a coin, because it can be used beyond payment. E.g., voting.
11:35@viayuve You can buy/trade Red tokens with fiat money/any other crypto, if the exchanges will offer it in the future.
11:38Ethereum is limited, is based on proof of work and can be mined. It's not the RED token you will mine, but Ethereum, as RED is just an ERC-20 token.
11:39These tokens are pre-allocated and limited in amount.
OneArb
12:46@rebolek What is the guarantee that RED supply is limited?
viayuve
12:47@BeardPower Red is a token not a coin so in future will red get its own coins ?? just curious so If I buy token now from xtar will I get voting right??
12:49@OneArb interesting question.
12:59@BeardPower about voting right how it works people pay with their red to company to vote or if I have red I can vote with even 1 red in my account??
OneArb
13:24@viayuve While I ask the question, I realize, consider one possible key behind Bitcoin rise to predominance.
Proof of Stake, through mining, requires a consensus of the community to change the code, hence increase supply limit.
Ethereum Fondation has left the supply an open ended matter, once it moves to Proof of Stake, what stops a handful of people to decide?
13:54@BeardPower For all RED labeling as a token, I remark it was birthed through an ICO, Initial Coin Offering.
BeardPower
16:55 @OneArb The supply limitation is guaranteed by the smart contract.
17:00@viayuve There will not be any additional coins, as RED is a token, which also can be used as a coin. Voting mechanisms are not finalized yet, but yes, you have voting rights, when you own RED tokens. You don't pay for voting rights, but the more tokens you own, the more voting power you have.
17:16@OneArb Bitcoin and Ethereum is Proof of Work at the moment, so people would need a lot of hashing power for a 51% attack. The amount of Ethereum will not increase with PoS, it could even go down to 0.
17:21ICO is just a wording, which is ambiguous. It has a historic reason, because there were no distributed ledgers, which supported smart contracts. Every token can be used as a coin, but not every coin is a token. RED is a smart contract/an ERC-20 token, which generated the RED coin as an asset.
17:22Voting rights would be another asset/functionality of the RED token.
17:29So the ICO will distribute the RED coin, as a coin asset, of the RED token.
greggirwin
19:01@BeardPower if you have links to best practices or standardized voting formulae, those would be helpful as we work on that. And we'll pick your brain directly as well. :^)
9214
19:28@greggirwin you have a typo - "pick" instead of "tip"
greggirwin
19:54Ooops! Too late to edit now. ;^)
19:55That slot for RED tokens will be a standard mod for Reducers, in our heads preferably.
OneArb
21:00@BeardPower Since Ethereum forks - the DAO, several blockchain hacks - have removed Ether from the immutable store of value class. It takes only once to loose that distinction.
Where do you get that Ethereum supply is limited, any links?
The contrary is a known fact within the crypto community.
https://www.quora.com/Is-there-a-limit-to-the-supply-of-Ethereum
greggirwin
21:11I don't think @BeardPower said the *supply* is limited, but how fast it can be mined is.
OneArb
22:01@greggirwin I do not know how the 51% "attack" even fit in the discussion. I follow up on @BeardPower
> "Ethereum is limited, is based on proof of work and can be mined. It's not the RED token you will mine, but Ethereum, as RED is just an ERC-20 token."

In 2017 the issuance rate of Ether is 14.75%.
https://ethereum.stackexchange.com/questions/12501/what-is-ethereums-inflation-rate-how-quickly-will-new-ether-be-created

BeardPower
02:39@OneArb The 51% attack was regarding the DAO, hacks and forks. The blockchains are not really that decentralized or secure as people might think. The decentralization just boils down to the handful of mining pools. Once you control 51% of the chain, it can be altered at the liking of whoever holds the 51%.
02:40>It takes only once to loose that distinction.
02:41What do you mean? Loose the distinction between what?
02:46As @greggirwin already pointed out: I said Ethereum is limited. The unlimited supply is theoretical. Ethereum is inflationary, which means it's limited. The rate of new supply is exponentional tending to zero. With the words of Viktor: Hence, in the foreseeable future, the supply will not go far above 100 million.
OneArb
02:47@BeardPower The DAO hack has nothing to do with an hypothetical 51% attack. To start with, there is no example of successful 51% attack I am aware of.
The DAO hack used a Solidity bug.
https://medium.com/@MyPaoG/explaining-the-dao-exploit-for-beginners-in-solidity-80ee84f0d470
BillDStrong
02:48Also, that 51% is a particular attack. It is theoretically possible to affect the chain with 33% bad actors.
BeardPower
02:50@OneArb I know and I never said that. Even if there is no example yet, it just proves that the blockchain is not as secure as people might think and that it can be altered without hacks.
02:57And there were indeed 51% attacks https://cryptohustle.com/krypton-recovers-from-a-new-type-of-51-network-attack
OneArb
03:04@BeardPower
>The blockchains are not really that decentralized or secure as people might think.

The blockchain is also secured by validating nodes - over 5000 for Bitcoin - which validates new minted blocks.
A 51% "attack" only benefit is to attempt to fork the network in the hope of performing a double spend.
Community will never accept such network take over and the forked chain will die soon or later.
BeardPower
03:05Not to mention the ghash.io incident.
03:06@OneArb The validation nodes would be overruled by the 51%.
03:08Not only double spending but also prevent mining.
OneArb
03:10> And there were indeed 51% attacks https://cryptohustle.com/krypton-recovers-from-a-new-type-of-51-network-attack

Krypton marketcap was never above 500,000 USD.
Any new coin with very few validating nodes is fair target for the "51% attack"
BeardPower
03:11The community has to accept it, because the 51% of the community controls it.
OneArb
03:12@BeardPower
> The community has to accept it, because the 51% of the community controls it.

Exchanges for one will not. Validating nodes won't either.
03:13@BeardPower
> The validation nodes would be overruled by the 51%.

Please provide some reference.
03:19@BillDStrong If there is evidence of a major blockchain being affected by a "51% attack", the figure can be less granted, then I'll be happy to review.

BillDStrong
03:23https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/selfish-mining-a-25-attack-against-the-bitcoin-network-1383578440/
03:24Also, here is a talk about security in hashgraph. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcToFASnyrc
OneArb
03:57@BillDStrong
> Also, that 51% is a particular attack. It is theoretically possible to affect the chain with 33% bad actors.

Controling hash power is only part of the equation.

It would all depend on the intent of the attack, double-spend or chain take over.

For the later, the validating nodes run by exchanges, major payment processors, other miners, collect new transactions in the mempool. They run a full node since they are the main transaction source / processor.

Validating node operators can agree to sync to the historical chain.
https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/67713/51-attack-and-rewriting-to-the-latest-checkpoint
04:16
>It takes only once to loose that distinction.

Once a blockchain was forked in order to reverse transactions some view it can no longer be considered as an immutable store of value.
This is a reference to Ethereum Classic vs. Ethereum. Ethereum rolled back the blockchain to the state prior to the DAO hack vs. Ethereum Classic deciding to preserve the immutable nature of the blockchain at the cost of the hacker keeping what he was able to extract fom DAO investors.>
04:37
As @greggirwin already pointed out: I said Ethereum is limited. The unlimited supply is theoretical. Ethereum is inflationary, which means it's limited. The rate of new supply is exponentional tending to zero. With the words of Viktor: Hence, in the foreseeable future, the supply will not go far above 100 million.

Thanks for making that point, here is a link https://www.quora.com/Is-there-a-limit-to-the-supply-of-Ethereum>

dsgeyser
20:46https://hackernoon.com/smart-contracts-turing-completeness-reality-3eb897996621

Interesting article wrt smart contracts vs language use, especially the part that talks about the ideal language being one that is expressive and easy to reason about. It seems like Red is a good fit.

greggirwin
00:27Nice article. I like this bit:

> what matters is how straightforward it is to construct programs which are easy to reason about.

However, if I go to the Tezos tech page link, all I get is a starfield image. Can't comment on how our approach might compare since I don't know what it looks like.
x8x
07:52https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMdsfYA9590&feature=youtu.be
10:13VALID is about re-empowering the people with their own Identity and helping them to monetize it. Never before there’s been such huge step forward to re-balance the status between marketing/consumer exploitation and personal/human rights to exist on this planet. It will be a huge shift of paradigm ! .. sounds good :smile:
greggirwin
16:55Looks like a nice project. Thanks @x8x.

dsgeyser
08:08World Blockchain Forum. Investments & ICOs.

Madinat Jumeirah
Dubai, 16 & 17 April 2018

Headsup notice for Team Red.
10:57https://ethresear.ch/t/explanation-of-daicos/465
greggirwin
19:31Thanks @dsgeyser !

x8x
13:43Take note that according to https://medium.com/@MyCrypto/mycrypto-what-you-need-to-know-ee6e45c24313 , MEW https://www.myetherwallet.com/ has transitioned to https://mycrypto.com/
BeardPower
14:33Well, it runs in parallel. mycrypto has better scaling and is a rewrite with audited source.
14:34Thanks for the heads-up. So do we decided to use the former or the latter ;-)
OneArb
14:45@x8x +1
"re-balance the status between marketing/consumer"
greggirwin
17:28Thanks @x8x.
rebolek
17:49Isn't MyCrypto *hostile fork* (erhm erhm) of MyEtherWallet?
BeardPower
17:50@rebolek Yes. https://techcrunch.com/2018/02/09/myetherwallet-fork/
x8x
21:01I'm sure @BeardPower has more insight, from what I see Taylor was more invested into the project and planned for expansion ($$?) , anyway looks like the new site has more man power, the version running on MyCrypto is ahead of MEW and here is the coming in the next weeks new React based version ( so they can deploy native to android and IOS with React Native ) https://github.com/MyCryptoHQ/MyCrypto . There is for sure some money to be made by being the go to wallet with integrated dapp browser. After all Cipher Browser got 300'000$ support from Las Vegas porn industry. ;-)
greggirwin
22:02Follow the porn money.

x8x
11:38If using MetaMask, make REALLY sure you login AND logout ONLY on the site you intend to have access to your wallet! Pretty big privacy issue https://github.com/MetaMask/metamask-extension/issues/714
greggirwin
18:14Thanks @x8x.
dander
18:20Maybe I am just not understanding the purpose of that extension, but using the same application to browse the public internet and manage a crypto wallet seems really problematic to me.
greggirwin
18:24Having almost *any* of this run in a browser is scary as all get-put to me. I use MyEtherWallet to access a hardware wallet, but have a couple other things set up to learn and experiment.
9214
18:25one should learn that basic personal Internet hygiene is to separate your finance transactions from day-to-day working
18:27ideally separate device, air gapped most of the time and with USB ports filled with plastic :neckbeard:
dander
18:28hah, a little bit difficult to use then ;)
greggirwin
18:28Of course, but we should also be able to use the tools we have.
9214
18:28I forgot to mention foil shielding
greggirwin
18:28I like that MEW shows how to run it offline, and I considered that, but I thought my tin foil hat would be enough.
18:29Except it doesn't keep @9214 out.
9214
18:33@greggirwin [0:28](https://youtu.be/OY1bvw2ifvE?t=28)
greggirwin
18:37A little scary...

BeardPower
00:39@x8x >I'm sure @BeardPower has more insight

MEW was just a side-project in the beginning. As demand and requests increased, bugs were discovered and needed to be fixed fast. As a result, the work-live-balance of the team members was non existing. The side-project turned into a full-time job, so MEW turned into the full-time job/project named MyCrypto. The people behind MEW also had different visions for the future. MyCrypto is scaling, more responsive, more modern, new tech, so yes, even $$$ might be involved ;-)
OneArb
14:45@greggirwin
> Having almost *any* of this run in a browser is scary as all get-put to me. I use MyEtherWallet to access a hardware wallet, but have a couple other things set up to learn and experiment.

All browsers wallets are SPV / lightweight wallets increasing transaction traceability.

For those who value keeping a low profile as a first line of defense, running a full node is a great way to lower attack surface as a bonus do away with the light wallet.
x8x
17:38@OneArb what is SPV ? and light wallet? Ok running a full node locally, then do you menage your wallet with geth directly, run a local copy of MEW, other? :smile:
OneArb
19:02@x8x Just run a GUI on top of geth/eth node, for instance https://ethereum.stackexchange.com/questions/8/what-are-the-different-guis-available-for-ethereum
19:06@x8x In SPF Simplified Payment Verification or lightweight client, your transaction relies on somebody else's full node.

Here is the gotcha, your IP address can be associated with your transaction.
19:08@x8x Note MyEtherWallet can be configured to run over a full node like Parity.
https://myetherwallet.github.io/knowledge-base/networks/run-your-own-node-with-myetherwallet.html
19:17@x8x One last point for greater pseudonimity, create a new address for each transaction to mitigate linking a transaction set to a single address.

Hope I make sense :smile:
x8x
20:24@OneArb Thanks! would a light node geth --syncmode light still expose IP ? that's quite a nice solution, 10 minutes, 200MB storage. And on top the Ethereum Wallet NOT Mist ?
OneArb
20:26@x8x 200 MB storage means you do not have a full node
https://ethereum.stackexchange.com/questions/31734/ethereum-blockchain-size
20:29@x8x But then you probably do not need it, seems similar to Bitcoin full node pruning.
x8x
20:30right a light node is not a full node but should secure the client IP
OneArb
20:31Ethereum full node is less relevant for Ethereum - if at all - since Ethereum is balance based vs. UTX Unspent Transaction Bitcoin
x8x
20:32I guess the answer is light node would be ok to prevent IP leak ;-)
OneArb
20:33@x8x Weasel clause: never expect anonymity, pseudonymity at best either Ethereum or Bitcoin, so I discuss best practice only :)
20:36An option for enhanced privacy is to run your stack over TOR, Tails or at least over a VPN
x8x
20:37"create a new address for each transaction" hierarchical deterministic wallets (bip32) would be ok (easier to manage) ? or would you go for full new addresses?
OneArb
20:38IP is still exposed, however linking transactions to your IP should not, for sure in Bitcoin, checking now for Ethereum:

https://ethereum.stackexchange.com/questions/9498/nodes-ip-exposed
20:40> "create a new address for each transaction" hierarchical deterministic wallets (bip32) would be ok (easier to manage) ? or would you go for full new addresses?

Researching deterministic wallet puts one ahead 99% of the crowd security wise!
x8x
20:40I guess the full node gets the IP of the light node but then there could be many clients connected to the light node, same for a full node, so privacy should be the same.
20:42Please rephrese "puts one ahead 99% of the crowd" my english not that good.. ;-)
OneArb
20:43> but then there could be many clients connected to the light node, same for a full node, so privacy should be the same.

As long as your light client accesses your own node, yes, that' shte way I comprehend it.
20:52> Please rephrase "puts one ahead 99% of the crowd" my english not that good.. ;-)

hierarchical deterministic wallets seem to be viewed as improving privacy in Ethereum. I am not sure there is a security reviewed implementation yet.

https://ethereum.stackexchange.com/questions/1094/what-hierarchical-deterministic-hd-wallets-are-available-for-ethereum
x8x
21:12MetaMask and Cipher Browser use the BIP32 specification https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0032.mediawiki . MetaMask UI is misleading as the "Create Account" sounds like creating a new key but it instead create a child key. So if you use the same mnemonic on MetaMask and in CipherBrowser, the first 10 accounts you create in MetaMask will be the same 10 accounts that Cipher Browser shows, useful! ;-)
DideC
22:20@OneArb @x8x men, reading this dialog is as clear to me as earing Qtxie speak to his mother ;-) :worried:
greggirwin
22:21Don't worry @DideC, all you need to do is run a full node of 100+GB, and don't make any mistakes or you'll lose everything you own. :^)
DideC
22:23Oh !! So finally I had understand the main part of it then :smile:
OneArb
23:49> @OneArb @x8x men, reading this dialog is as clear to me as earing Qtxie speak to his mother ;-)

Just research how really anonymous ETH and BTC are and it will all make sense! (or how hard it is to remain using them)

OneArb
00:06@greggirwin There is no need for a full node. The all Ethereum DB is 40 GB or so and @x8x used the switches to get the "pruned" version downed to 200 MB.

Same for Bitcoin. I can read crypto tenors argue about large blocks effect on running a full node while never mentioning full nodes can be pruned.

So yes, those nodes cannot check transactions till the begining of the blockchain, but still obfuscate IP.
00:08@x8x Do you feel comfortable with the maturity of MetaMask and Cipher Browser to transfer significant funds with?
DideC
09:13@OneArb Just a bit like surgian dialog where most words are medical ones:
*MyEtherWallet, full node like Parity, greater pseudonimity, transaction, light node geth --syncmode light, Ethereum Wallet, Mist, full node pruning, balance based vs. UTX Unspent Transaction Bitcoin, TOR, Tails, hierarchical deterministic wallets (bip32), MetaMask, Cipher Browser, mnemonic.*
09:15Bitchain world looks like Java EE world: a complex one. How would you want that this new country be accessible to anyone? Actually, it's just a technology hipe for very concerned people.
BeardPower
11:34If you want to create a hype or want to deflect from issues, throw out some Buzzwords. Marketing 101 😄
11:36If you want anonymity, use cash.
OneArb
13:58@greggirwin Would you care to point to me the community charter, I know it's on Github some place?
rebolek
14:01@OneArb do you mean https://github.com/red/red/wiki/Community-Communication-Values ?
OneArb
14:02@rebolek Yes, I want a refresher
14:13I opt for "Be patient".
14:19@DideC I am trying to figure what is your constructive point.
DideC
15:11@OneArb I'm not constructive at all (sorry). I just say that this is a lot of terms (and what they means/represents) to learn and understand to be able to follow a chat about this.
x8x
16:03@DideC I can only agree that it is a BIG mess ! And that, before you start looking at actual source code of the many libraries/frameworks/tools involved. The good thing is there is a LOT of space for Red to improve current status quo. People will go insane when we'll have a Red wallet that you can actually read the whole source in a day.. ;-) downloaded the new MyCrypto wallet source, installed dependencies, 402MB ..
16:14And then, if you look at the stats here http://dappboard.com/app , either they are missing some big one, or in real world, dapps have very low users. Example, all that you read about the magic of the 0x protocol and related decentralized exchanges, when you go on their website and see their marketing exposure you would think woa that is big.. 0x smart contract use in the last 24 hours -> 682 ..
OneArb
16:52@DideC I have been reading on this industry for the last two years. I concluded the field is too vast for a single mind to encompass.

90% of what I read on crypto leads to partial truth.

example:
presumption: most people would think Vitalik invented smart contracts, would you agree?
fact: Nick Szabo did
https://satoshiwatch.com/hall-of-fame/nick-szabo/articles/idea-smart-contracts-nick-szabo-1997/

"buzzwords" can refer to software (geth --syncmode light) and protocols (TOR VPN) that can be ran to lower hackers surface attack.

Some people think of them as nuggets and actually run them, so please join the gang!

greggirwin
16:58@OneArb your input is very welcome. I'm very new to all this, like most of us, and it's like trying to keep up with web dev tools...except a lot of stuff is still make-believe.
x8x
17:23@OneArb I came to similar conclusion about single mind overflow and 90% (I would have called that BS but let stay polite and call it partial truth :smile: ) I really wish we can expand on @BeardPower work and build our own KISS crypto wiki with the essential stuff, best practices, best tools without all the noise. It should become so good that people would come for the wiki before they realize we also have a cool language.
OneArb
17:27@x8x I actually checked https://github.com/BeardPower/Funade/wiki
perhaps @BeardPower might consider adding run gethas useful step
BeardPower
17:31Sure, that's why I started it in the first place.
I copied the wiki from my git over to https://github.com/red/red/wiki/Introduction-to-ICOs,-wallets-and-cryptocurrencies, so anyone can extend it. I will do some checking, what else could be added in terms of pseudonymity and security :+1:
OneArb
17:32> @OneArb I came to similar conclusion about single mind overflow and 90% (I would have called that BS but let stay polite and call it partial truth :smile: )

Elements leading to truth, I can get in the constructive spirit :)

17:43@BeardPower Running geth over VPN can be a suggestion since it cannot run over Tor as it requires UDP according to:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/6h6v7h/i_will_turn_off_my_full_bitcoin_node_as_soon_as/
x8x
17:50@BeardPower it is possible to have Ethereum Wallet run with a light node the option is in the Develop menu Synch with light client (beta) . Thought that option is available only after it has finished downloading a full node on first install, not very user friendly. Also you suggest MEW as a better alternative. My last try at "this must be the secure way".. is to run locally downloaded copy of MyCrypto and connect it to a local light node. Strange thing MyCrypto suggest using MetaMask. Any better?
17:51@OneArb there is a ticket here about adding SOCKS support https://github.com/ethereum/go-ethereum/issues/1855
OneArb
18:13> @OneArb there is a ticket here about adding SOCKS support https://github.com/ethereum/go-ethereum/issues/1855

When providing wallet guidance, I prefer to lean towards caution. Whenever suggesting beta software - as in just added feature - I'd make sure to introduce a caution notice.

Software development within crypto space, the funds involved warrant imho a different mindset than limited liability applications.
BeardPower
18:16@x8x
#!/bin/bash ps -ae | grep geth if [ "$?" -ne "0" ]; then geth --syncmode "light" & sleep 10; fi ethereumwallet --light-node
18:17A better way? Depends on convenience: use the geth tools or code a Red wallet 😎
x8x
18:19Sorry @OneArb for not being clear, I meant to point out that there is that option, but that anyway, as suggested by @BeardPower it should not be used, MEW or MyCrypto would be a better choice. I'm not suggesting anything, just testing the various options.
BeardPower
18:21@x8x You should use MEW/MyCrypto in combination with MetaMask: https://myetherwallet.github.io/knowledge-base/migration/moving-from-private-key-to-metamask.html
18:22It's about keeping your private key safe.
9214
18:23I feel myself punier and punier with each new message posted here :baby_bottle:
rebolek
18:28@9214 you just have to optimize your crypto portfolio with faking the pseudonimity transactions distributed on esoteric quantum ledger.
BeardPower
18:28@9214 Wait for the beefier topics 😉
x8x
18:29@BeardPower Thanks, I read that but I understood it is transferring from MEW to MetaMask, didn't got it how they work together. I'll have to follow the instructions and try only so I understand.
18:32If we are lucky enough, @qtxie will resurface from the holidays with a ready to use Red wallet :smile:
BeardPower
18:32MetaMask is storing your private keys "securely" in the browser's storage container. It's just a bridge for accessing dApps without running a full node.
18:34@x8x Time to prepare more widgets for beefing up the Red wallet.
18:42@OneArb Yes, VPN would be the only solution. I will collect some VPN services.
OneArb
18:46> Sorry @OneArb for not being clear, I meant to point out that there is that option
my, my ... @x8x I meant my statement as a general one rather than specific to your suggestion ... :smile:
19:00> @OneArb your input is very welcome. I'm very new to all this, like most of us, and it's like trying to keep up with web dev tools...except a lot of stuff is still make-believe.

Don't sweat it, I actually know a narrow piece of the puzzle relating to securing my stake.

It took me many years to figure that the Mac was indeed more secure than the PC but less than *nux ...
19:10@x8x @BeardPower I'd still be cautious about recommending MetaMask.
At the very least I'd go over and mention what MetaMask developer states: "I encourage users to not use MetaMask to store more than they are willing to risk to a hacker"
https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/6j7445/how_secure_is_metamask/djcdu8n/
rebolek
19:15I'm using Metamask to collect pennies from airdrops and I think it's perfect tool for that purpose. Nothing more.
x8x
19:15Building Red wallet, we'll need some libraries ported to Red, for sure BIP32 and BIP39 for which we'll need something like pbkdf2 that use crypto.createHmac('sha512', key).update(block1).digest() from the crypt js lib see https://github.com/bitpay/bitcore-mnemonic/blob/master/lib/pbkdf2.js , do checksum func in Red provide same functionality or it will need improvements? And btw we should start listing essential libraries that would need porting to Red and see if some kind soul would contribut and maybe foundation make it a bounty.
rebolek
19:16@x8x see checksum, both sha512 and hmac are there.
19:17
>> checksum/with "hello" 'sha512 "world"
== #{
2B83319D3E78544E4430C4F5621968FEE8B6FFA1254678B2C6FB98F7F79FF16A
FEE2DA909A7BB741488CA3BACBBF6CEC8FD226C5A52EEF805EA65...
x8x
19:23@OneArb My understanding was that MEW would be enough, even they suggest to use it with MetaMask.. My understanding is MetaMask is needed only if you want to interact with DApps ( MetaMask make your wallet available to them when you unlock ) .
19:26@BeardPower very curious about how the widgets project is evolving! Any screenshot you could share? :smile:
19:27@rebolek Thank you!
19:31If there is any taker, here are both specifications:
https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0032.mediawiki
https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0039.mediawiki
You can find various language implementations at the bottom of each page.
BeardPower
19:37@x8x MEW is enough yes. It offers various access methods: raw private key, encrypted key with passphrase, hardware wallets, ... The issue with MEW is, that you have to keep your keys/passphrase in the clipboard. MetaMask is storing the keys in a sandboxed area of the browser, so your keys are more safe. MEW can communicate with MetaMask, which is a browser extension, for the key exchange. MetaMask itself is also able to create wallets and all other fancy stuff you need.

MEW is a script (JavaScript), MetaMask is a browser extension.

>very curious about how the widgets project is evolving! Any screenshot you could share? :smile:

Only a button and a graph widget for now. So 2/1000 :) I plan on keeping a wiki entry with the widgets.

Unfortunately I'm short of time, but I'm trying to work on the widgets, an animation framework port/DSL and some OS ideas.
OneArb
19:44@x8x @BeardPower Any hot wallet, ie. connected on the Internet, runs the risk of keylogging.
The only way I'd feel comfortable recommending MEW is over an air gapped computer, ie. ideal situation never been connected to any other computer, let alone the Internet, where the wallet keys ** and transactions ** are generated off-line, then USB key transferred.

Anyone who follows those steps gets the Satoshi trophee!
Run the above stack above a Tails Virtual Machine gets an upgrade to the Satoshi Nakamoto trophee!

Anything less than above procedure, I will guard myself from signing off as recommended steps for public consumption.

Using a hardware wallet is possibly an equal or better solution. I have yet to review.
x8x
19:44@BeardPower Thanks for the clipboard detail of MEW, didn't see that around! Sounds like you are up to many great things! :+1: OS ideas for the Mill ? :smile:
BeardPower
19:46Also be careful, if you are using services like grammarly or any other service, which is capturing your input fields and sends the content into the cloud. Your key will end up in the cloud!
9214
19:47http://lynncinnamon.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Screen-Shot-2016-12-23-at-9.02.09-AM.png
x8x
19:47@BeardPower You speaking about all those "smart" alternative keyboards fro IOS and Android?
19:48Crypto headace.. is that common? Suggested medication?
BeardPower
19:51@OneArb Yes, absolutely. You can also run MEW locally as a "cold wallet". I'm using a Ledger Nano S, just using MEW for testing. Having your comouter connected to the internet, needs a secure OS, which is not really existing, as the needed hardware is not made yet.
19:51>@BeardPower Thanks for the clipboard detail of MEW, didn't see that around! Sounds like you are up to many great things! :+1: OS ideas for the Mill ? :smile:

And so less time... ;-) Yes, for the Mill.
x8x
19:53This guy has a pretty secure setup https://ryepdx.com/2017/10/my-2017-setup
BeardPower
19:54>You speaking about all those "smart" alternative keyboards fro IOS and Android?

Yes, you need to be very careful with those. There are some virtual keyboards, IIRC also from Kaspersky, which can mitigate the risk a little.

>Crypto headace.. is that common? Suggested medication?

Caused by too much input :) Medication: becoming a hermit. :D

x8x
19:56How far can you go? CSS-Keylogger https://github.com/maxchehab/CSS-Keylogging
BeardPower
19:58@x8x Nice setup. I'm using LUKS encrypted hard-drives. Also the boot device is encrypted with a keyphrase and a key stored on an USB drive. You can also create gpg/ssh/auth/2FA apps for the Ledger Nano. That would be very secure.
x8x
19:59@BeardPower May I ask which sauce of OS you prefer? And have you any thoughts on NixOS ?
BeardPower
19:59You can go as far as modifying the BIOS/UEFI with keylogging capabilities.
x8x
20:04Then of course we also have our new friends on the block Ms. Spectre and Mr. Meltdown https://medium.com/@thedrbits/spectre-and-meltdown-will-steal-your-cryptocurrency-196fa034e329
BeardPower
20:05@x8x I never used NixOS, but it's a nice distro to add consistency to configurations, setups and make them more reliable.
I'm preferring the "do your own thing / bare to the metal" approach. I used to run Slackware, Arch and the BSDs. Unfortunately, OSs don't use hardware protections that much. Either because they are inconvenient, costly or just don't exist. I prefer micro-, multi- and exo-kernels.
x8x
20:07I'll have to google your last sentence... :fire: :worried:
BeardPower
20:08@x8x Unfortunately, yes. But which patches? Intel and AMD are desperate to deliver patches, which actually work! If they do, they cut a slice of your performance.
20:09There is Spectre2 already...
20:10@x8x The kernel types? Just some fancy words for kernel architectures, which separate responsibilities :D
x8x
20:13Spectre2? more google.. :smile:
BeardPower
20:16There are multiple variants of Spectre and Meltdown, more powerful. Nearly any CPU and GPU is affected:
https://googleprojectzero.blogspot.co.at/2018/01/reading-privileged-memory-with-side.html
OneArb
21:40@BeardPower
> MetaMask is storing the keys in a sandboxed area of the browser, so your keys are more safe.

That's a great improvement. Does the MetaMask extension not require a password to access it?
rebolek
21:40It does.
OneArb
21:44@BeardPower
> @OneArb I'm using a Ledger Nano S, just using MEW for testing.

At last we get to the bottom of it. Devs write hot wallets while using hard wallets themselves :fire: :worried: :smile:
21:48@rebolek Get the oldest computer you can get your hands on, it's quite likely hackers moved on "long time ago" ...
BeardPower
21:51@OneArb
>Does the MetaMask extension not require a password to access it?

Yes, you create an account with MetaMask. When MEW wants to communicate with MetaMask, you need to be logged into MetaMask, or have to log into MetaMask.

>At last we get to the bottom of it. Devs write hot wallets while using hard wallets themselves :fire: :worried: :smile:

Hehe ;-)

>Get the oldest computer you can get your hands on, it's quite likely hackers moved on "long time ago" ...

Your CPU should not have branch prediction, though.



OneArb
22:56 @BeardPower
>Does the MetaMask extension not require a password to access it?

>Yes, you create an account with MetaMask.

So sandboxing only fixes cross browser memory leak. Keylogging remains an issue on MetaMask.

This entire discussion points towards a hardware wallet as the lowest skillset, time vs. cost and overall highest security grade solution.

MEW used as a hardware wallet would rank second.

Possibly MetaMask if hot wallet one must,

then MEW.

At least for myself it settles the choice. I'd favor clearing that point on your wiki, if you feel the same way.
23:03 @BeardPower
>Your CPU should not have branch prediction, though.

Better safe than sorry. I am downgrading to my Pentium computer. :worried:

"The short pipeline and lack of out-of-order machinery prevents the Pentium from having an exploitable interval between the ring check and the dependent load."
https://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1416399
BeardPower
23:13@OneArb Back to the sliding rule :smile:
23:14Well, my C64 is also still working.

rebolek
03:05I have few Amigas and C64 also :)
OneArb
06:52@BeardPower @rebolek Are you guys into archeology?
greggirwin
07:07@x8x, I've noted the BIP stuff for bounties.
07:08I was going to offer to sell my current machine, but it's not old enough. Some years back, my wife convinced me to get rid of my CoCo3. :^( I bet my Dad still has his HP85, but I doubt it runs.
BeardPower
10:56@OneArb No, only into stuff, which is/was done right 😎🤓
14:21Or use a secure architecture: [Spectre, Meltdown and the Mill CPU](https://millcomputing.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Spectre.03.pdf)

Honorificabilitudinitatibuses
9214
07:17hi @pengxiaolin8
Honorificabilitudinitatibuses
07:17First come here
9214
07:17yes, I noticed, welcome! :)
Honorificabilitudinitatibuses
07:17thanks
07:18How to change my icon
9214
07:18you should open your github profile and click on avatar
Honorificabilitudinitatibuses
07:19Ok,thanks very much
9214
07:19it may take a while for Gitter to catch up, but eventually your pic will change in this chat
Honorificabilitudinitatibuses
07:20thanks very much😄
9214
07:21@pengxiaolin8 if you don't have any blockchain or /C3 specific questions, I encourage to join [main room](https://gitter.im/red/red) so we can talk there
Honorificabilitudinitatibuses
07:22I have some questions of blockchain, I m starting some business of blockchain
9214
07:23okay, great :)
Honorificabilitudinitatibuses
07:24But I m a new comer
07:24😀
9214
07:24well, take your time, we all started from a blank slate at some point
Honorificabilitudinitatibuses
07:26Thanks very much
9214
07:27you're welcome
x8x
09:35http://www.tangleblog.com/2018/02/15/bitcoin-will-inevitably-lose-its-value-iota-will-take-over/
Honorificabilitudinitatibuses
BeardPower
12:13Welcome!
9214
12:13@pengxiaolin8 hi again :)
Honorificabilitudinitatibuses
12:14😂
12:14I from China
12:14My English is poor
12:14But I have many questions about blockchain
9214
12:15@pengxiaolin8 no worries, but in case you want to chat with Chinese users we have a [room](https://gitter.im/red/red/Chinese) for that ;)
Honorificabilitudinitatibuses
12:18I want to consult all of my international friends
12:18😂
9214
12:18@BeardPower FTW!
BeardPower
12:20:v:
9214
12:21sweet Jesus, that icon look :smiley:
12:21https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yxsnbqp44ak
Honorificabilitudinitatibuses
12:22I changed my profile
9214
12:22@Honorificabilitudinitatibuses It was about @BeardPower's new look ;)
12:22@BeardPower is it Draw based?
Honorificabilitudinitatibuses
12:24How to send a screenshot in the group?
9214
12:25@Honorificabilitudinitatibuses just drop an image or its URL here
BeardPower
12:25@9214 No. It's a vector graphic made from some designer. Re-creating it with draw would be easy and straight-forward.
9214
12:26@BeardPower *shakes a pouch of imaginary tokens* do it! :)
Honorificabilitudinitatibuses
12:33Why did I transfer the ETH from the imtoken to the ETH official wallet i, which has not reached the account for a day...
BeardPower
12:34@9214 Will do. If you are interested in who made these (I'm a big fan of such vector art): https://fullyillustrated.com/free-wallpaper/ipadmoods/
12:35@Honorificabilitudinitatibuses Please post the transaction hash.
9214
12:35@BeardPower I saw one really cute identicon generator not a while ago, trying to find it now...
12:36@BeardPower http://avatars.adorable.io/ :)
BeardPower
12:37@9214 Cool. Nintendo has such a generator for the WiiU :D
12:37It will create an Avatar based on your photo.
12:37LOL SpongeBob style :+1:
Honorificabilitudinitatibuses
12:38I found the account in the block chain browser, but the Ethereum Wallet did not show,
BeardPower
12:38Do you have the transaction hash?
12:41When you transfer a token to a wallet, you receive a transaction hash, which can be used to check, why the transaction failed. Maybe you used to low gas or gas fee.
Honorificabilitudinitatibuses
12:42Why the Ethereum Wallet has been synchronized for three days and still hasn't finished the work?
BeardPower
12:43The work on the transaction depends on the gas fee and the gas limit. The higher it is, the more higher are the chances it will be put into the next block from a miner.
12:44For contract addresses you need a minimum of 21 gwei, but this will put you into the pending transaction pool.
12:44You can check here https://ethgasstation.info/, what the actual best settings are.
Honorificabilitudinitatibuses
12:45I had checked
12:45I know the gas
BeardPower
12:45What were your settings?
12:45Did the transaction ran out of gas?
12:46If you post the Tx hash here, I can take a look at it.
Honorificabilitudinitatibuses
12:46Wait
BeardPower
12:47You can also send me a PM, if you don't want to post it in the room.
Honorificabilitudinitatibuses
12:47FROM:0x66074b55b3a7da39059024b14e255ad8daf1bf44
12:48TO:0xac7dcfe65b26c38839adb1f69920564ded52caf8
12:50Thank you very much for your answer. I want to do a digital currency based on ECR20, but I've never learned programming, and I'm learning slowly.
BeardPower
12:51All Txs went through without an issue. If you are using the official wallet, it should show it.
x8x
13:05@Honorificabilitudinitatibuses about making your own token, start here https://www.ethereum.org/token
Honorificabilitudinitatibuses
13:07Yeah,I have copy some code from that
13:13I can’t open the VPN now 😓
13:14It's inconvenient to surf the Internet in China
BeardPower
13:51@9214 One-tooth-style in Draw :D
13:51[![tooth.PNG](https://files.gitter.im/red/blockchain/GbP7/thumb/tooth.png)](https://files.gitter.im/red/blockchain/GbP7/tooth.PNG)
9214
13:52splendid!
BeardPower
13:52Voice over would be cool :)
9214
13:53@BeardPower ?
BeardPower
13:53You record some sentence, and the mouth would form accordingly.
13:54When playing it back.
9214
13:54it doesn't need voice over
BeardPower
13:54So it looks like the dude is speaking.
9214
13:55it speaks to my heart
13:55with its eyes
BeardPower
13:55Those would also form accordingly. Looking excited, angry, happy and so on.
13:57The Drawing pad from @toomasv would spead up the designing phase, but unfortunately it has some bug (I can't view he transformations).
14:05@9214 like this :D
14:05[![sad.PNG](https://files.gitter.im/red/blockchain/d5iD/thumb/sad.png)](https://files.gitter.im/red/blockchain/d5iD/sad.PNG)
9214
14:05it's depressing
BeardPower
14:07[![wut.PNG](https://files.gitter.im/red/blockchain/8Bqc/thumb/wut.png)](https://files.gitter.im/red/blockchain/8Bqc/wut.PNG)
14:08[![bored.PNG](https://files.gitter.im/red/blockchain/DA3U/thumb/bored.png)](https://files.gitter.im/red/blockchain/DA3U/bored.PNG)
14:08You can tell so much with eyes only ;-)
9214
14:0850 shades of gray :D
BeardPower
14:09:+1:
9214
14:09going OT now :smile:
BeardPower
14:09Yeah, I thought the same :smile:
14:10Better to create a wiki entry with all sorts of expressions.
toomasv
14:17@BeardPower What sequence of transformations did you try? Great icon BTW!
BeardPower
14:19@toomasv Thanks! Simple lines and more complicated ones. Selecting "Show transformations" does not do anything.
toomasv
14:20"Show transformations" is not implemented yet! What did you want to do?
BeardPower
14:20Ah! I wanted to draw something and get the Draw code of it.
toomasv
14:21Did it draw what you wanted?
BeardPower
14:22Yes, but there was some issue. Need to re-create it. IIRC if I selected the pen from the context menu, it did nothing and I was not able to select any pens from the left pallet anymore. It also spit out some errors on the log.
toomasv
14:23What platform are you on? I develop on W10 and don't have other machines to check the code.
BeardPower
toomasv
14:24Would be great if you can reproduce it.
9214
14:24guys, gui-branch? ;)
BeardPower
14:24The same behavior occurred after cleaning the canvas. I was not able to draw anything.
toomasv
14:24Oops!
BeardPower
14:24LOL Sorry, should have known that!
9214
14:25np, trying to be authoritative :D
BeardPower
14:25:+1:
greggirwin
23:03It sounds like we need to write Red chat app so that your base avatar can have transforms applied based on emoji codes. So you get "your" face with expressions, and you can create your own emotion plug-in transformations.
BeardPower
23:17Would be fun🤓

Honorificabilitudinitatibuses
06:32What does the cost of ICO including?
greggirwin
06:41The ICO ended in January, if you mean the RED token ICO.
Honorificabilitudinitatibuses
06:43I mean the new ico cost
greggirwin
06:44What new ICO?
OneArb
22:33@Honorificabilitudinitatibuses For a new ICO, it's free to create your own ERC20 token on the Ethereum blockchain. Advanced level required to manage in my view.
Here's a starting point: https://steemit.com/ethereum/@maxnachamkin/how-to-create-your-own-ethereum-token-in-an-hour-erc20-verified

Otherwise there are platform which catter to new ICOs, like https://wavesplatform.com/
https://next.exchange/
and many others.
BeardPower
22:58@greggirwin His own new ICO :)
greggirwin
23:06Ah, got it. Probably beyond our focus here, but feel free to link to other resources.

BeardPower
13:15Ledger pushed their new JS API and a Ledger DApp Ethereum starter kit:
https://www.ledger.fr/2018/02/09/pushing-ledger-javascript-libraries-next-level/
13:16ICS: inspire, copy, steal :smile:

x8x
21:39New MEW fork beta is life and beautiful! https://beta.mycrypto.com/
21:42https://medium.com/mycrypto/mycrypto-launches-public-beta-1b8ceb7e7cba
BeardPower
22:11Well, it's not that much different. No, this is beautiful: https://www.exodus.io/ ;-)
22:13Unfortunately, this is a bloaty Electron app. Needs to be re-written in Red with a fancy UI :smile:
22:17No battles about taste :+1:
22:19Developers are not designers (mostly).
x8x
22:45https://medium.com/@whatbitcoindid/an-open-letter-to-banks-about-bitcoin-and-cryptocurrencies-b0c7ef9b7c62
BeardPower
23:02Banks are against Cryptos, because they cannot control them.
23:02They cannot control the currencies nor the exchanges.

dockimbel
08:54@BeardPower
> Well, it's not that much different. No, this is beautiful: https://www.exodus.io/ ;-)

Indeed, very nice looking...but no support for hardware wallets?
x8x
09:37Nice article and much in line with Red philosophy (IMHO) https://medium.com/mycrypto/the-future-of-ethereum-doesnt-have-wallets-232fcee708bf
BeardPower
11:23@dockimbel Not yet, but it's on their roadmap. Ledger just released a new Firmware, which also makes interfacing with the hardware easier.
11:23>U2F tunnel is now supported for APDUs in the dashboard and also in the SDK. It’ll make it possible to support all communication protocols with a single interface and avoid using the “Browser Support” options. U2F tunnel is very convenient to interface with a web application (such as MyCrypto/MyEtherWallet).
11:30@x8x I find the article a little misleading. There will always be wallets, as a wallet is just your keypair. The wallet will just be handled transparently with no manual intervention. This is totally different to having no wallet/keys at all.
11:38Thanks for the link! It brought my attention to the BAT used in the Brave browser: https://basicattentiontoken.org
11:38Something that could also be utilized for Red?
19:49Will there also be support in Red/C3 for developing apps for hardware wallets? Tinkering around with Assembler is not really user friendly.
greggirwin
20:01@x8x, that Medium article from the MyCrypto guys makes it look like they're aligned with Red's goals in many, many ways. We should get in touch with them.

@BeardPower, I get a little queasy inside when I think about being part of the Ad system, but I feel the same about speculative ICOs. What I see now, and why I'm fully behind the blockchain effort for Red, is that we are focused on the underlying technology. I think BAT and other systems are a layer above where we are now. By facilitating the transparent use of tokens and other blockchain-based assets, we will enable things like BAT, and a lot more.
BeardPower
20:09BAT is just cutting out the middleman (the big boys), needed to manage your Ad payments, by using direct transfers to your wallet. This is a good thing. The idea decribed in the article (having a transparent wallet managment) is very nice indeed. There is still a wallet, which contradicts the headline: [...] doesn't have wallets [..]. That's what I don't like about the article.
20:10No wallets, no keys, no use ;-)
greggirwin
20:18My gut feeling is that BAT isn't cutting out the middleman, it's making Brave the new middleman, just at a lower cost to ad publishers, and potentially rewarding ad consumers.
BeardPower
20:35Yeah, there is some truth in that.
The shares are: 70/15/15 (publisher/Brave/customer).
20:42Speaking of wallets: @qtxie showed a little Red wallet teaser some time ago. Will the final software have some fancy UI like Exodus and support for other alt-coins? Maybe the new blog-post will cover the wallet a little :)
greggirwin
21:08I'm sure we'll see a lot of features, once things really get rolling.
BeardPower
21:08I'm counting on it :)

qtxie
00:58@BeardPower There certainly will be more features, but the UI maybe not that gorgeous. :-)
BeardPower
01:05@qtxie :+1: I'm sure there are some great designers in the Red community to beef it up after the first version is released ;-)
11:57It seems that Austria is pushing hard on Blockchains.
[Multi-Blockchain Token System](https://pantos.io/). It's from the Bitpanda guys and a n Open Source research project in cooperation with the University of Vienna.

rebolek
12:14that page is so cool and modern, it's basically unreadable
9214
12:16fancy ~~pants~~ pantos ;)
BeardPower
12:17@rebolek Some inspiration for the new Red website? :smile:
rebolek
12:17I hope not :)
BeardPower
12:18It should be optimzed for Links ;-)
rebolek
12:18that's the spirit! :)
BeardPower
12:37@9214 With pa~~~n~~~tos :smile:
x8x
13:09@BeardPower no long beard in pantos team, not a good sign!
BeardPower
13:14@x8x Doomed to failure! Well, it sounded good. ;-)
13:19https://www.wired.com/2012/11/20-12-st_beardtaxonomy/
13:20>As Kahson so artfully demonstrated, a programming language is only as successful as the beard on the face of the man who designed it — or something like that.

:clap:
18:38Crypto exchanges definitely need regulation. Whatch out everyone.
18:38https://thenextweb.com/hardfork/2018/03/07/binance-accidentally-selling-users-cryptocurrency-bitcoin/
greggirwin
18:48Wow. @BeardPower, please add to your list that if we want bot trading, I want one that uses special, small accounts for daily work, but lets me set limits about when to move things to safe(r) harbors.
x8x
19:05News from the just forked MEW: Swap with ShapeShift on MyCrypto! https://medium.com/mycrypto/swap-with-shapeshift-on-mycrypto-5e4e42289b22
BeardPower
19:12@greggirwin Which list exactly? On the feature list for my trading app? Such issues are exactly why I do not trust these exchanges and waiting for CM!
19:13@x8x Nice. The Pantos project will offer the same, but you can move tokens around different blockchains :)
19:13Close to real-time.
greggirwin
19:33@BeardPower my "wish list". :^)
BeardPower
19:43@greggirwin Both of our lists get longer with the hour ;-) The issue with transferring funds quick and cheap is the used ledger technology. Most exchanges are using BTC as their base currency or fiat money in some sort. BTC or ETH transactions are slow and not cheap. Especially BTC! Using MIOTA as a base currency would be cost free and fast.
Most exchanges are centralized, so they must keep your assets in their more or less secure wallets and are affected by hacks, bugs and scaling issues. Decentralized exchanges are the new king of the hill in the future. They offer atomic swaps and your funds are always kept in your wallet, there is no intermediate, pure P2P. The disadvantage is lower volume and higher fees depending on an involved relay party.
Using a DEX would fulfill most of your "wish", as you are always moving things to a safe harbor. The rest would need a wallet software/service, which is splitting your keys into a multi-sig wallet.

dockimbel
09:59@BeardPower
> Will there also be support in Red/C3 for developing apps for hardware wallets? Tinkering around with Assembler is not really user friendly.

We have a prototype support for Nano Ledger S key already, and a working wallet for ETH. More info in the upcoming blog article. ;-)
viayuve
10:01:clap: :cake:
dockimbel
10:02@BeardPower From the 0xproject website, they say that all the relay are "sharing liquidity", so I understand that the real volume is the addition of the volumes from each relay, is that correct? If so, then the effective volume on those decentralized relays should be way higher than what I can see for now.
BeardPower
10:22@dockimbel
>We have a prototype support for Nano Ledger S key already, and a working wallet for ETH. More info in the upcoming blog article. :wink:

Great! Ledger just released a new Firmware with security updates and more space for apps.

>From the 0xproject website, they say that all the relay are "sharing liquidity", so I understand that the real volume is the addition of the volumes from each relay, is that correct? If so, then the effective volume on those decentralized relays should be way higher than what I can see for now.

Yes, that is correct.

You can settle transactions directly without any middleman, but it's a little hard to find a counterparty. This is where relayer come in. They share their order book with the DEX and act as a liquidity pool. Many relayer can plug into the DEX, each with their own order book. Additionally, relayer can plug into other relayer and share their order book for a even fuller liquidity pool.
So yes, if there are big relayer working together, it would have way higher volume than a CEX. Orders are matched off-chain and settled on-chain.

This site has a very nice explanation video and information about it: [Relayer network](https://relayer.network/)

x8x
10:39@BeardPower nice link thx!
BeardPower
10:44:+1:
viayuve
10:45@BeardPower what is " 20 network confirmation"
BeardPower
10:46@viayuve It means, that 20 different miners have to confirm your transaction, before it is accepted as valid by the exchange.
10:47You can see the amount of confirmations, but pasting your transaction hash into the upper right input field: https://etherscan.io/
viayuve
10:47so red support mining now kill me I thought it is pre-mined
rebolek
10:51ETH mining, RED runs on ETH blockchain
viayuve
10:52@BeardPower so If I understand it correctly blockchain is just database but instead of single person holding it more people holds is decentralized I guess
rebolek
10:52:+1:
BeardPower
10:52@viayuve As @rebolek explained, ETH is Ethereum, which can be mined. RED is a token, which cannot be mined, but only minted. At the end of the ICO, they were minted.
10:53@viayuve Exactly, in layman's term.
10:53Many people are holding a copy of it.
viayuve
10:55than why have multiple tokens just use one that would be nice I guess I can create my own lol everyone can have their own @BeardPower token or @rebolek token hahahah
rebolek
10:56yes, but @BeardPower token will be worth 1000 ETH and my token will be worth 0.0000001 ETH
10:57that's why there are different tokens
x8x
11:03@viayuve you can start here https://www.ethereum.org/token ;-)
viayuve
11:04already saw that link from google @x8x
> than why have multiple tokens just use one that would be nice I guess I can create my own lol everyone can have their own @BeardPower token or @rebolek token hahahah
BeardPower
11:30@viayuve Because tokens can have a normal address and a smart contract address. The former will be stored on the blockchain as is, but the latter has some logic involved, a smart contract (a fancy name for code running on the blockchain).
The @BeardPower token (a normal address) would just store your asset on the blockchain, but the @rebolek token (a smart contract address) will sell your soul to him. That's why it's so cheap in value. There is a catch ;-)
x8x
11:38:smile: :+1:
viayuve
12:08oh got it :smile:
9214
14:03your thoughts, gentlemen?
* https://mycryptowiki.com/Main_Page
* https://www.orc.press/

Honorificabilitudinitatibuses
16:45Are you on line
9214
16:45@Honorificabilitudinitatibuses you-who?
Honorificabilitudinitatibuses
16:45How to delete the token in the imtoken?
16:47I have been here for a libertine
16:47Longtime
BeardPower
16:49@Honorificabilitudinitatibuses There should be a button "Delete wallet", but this will delete your keys. So make sure you export/backup your wallet first.
Honorificabilitudinitatibuses
BeardPower
16:51Once you deleted your wallet/keys, there is no way to get them back (and also your assets), unless you created a recovery phrase.
16:52Why do you want to delete a token in the first place? You cannot delete a token anyway, as a wallet is just a keypair. No assets are stored in your wallet.
Honorificabilitudinitatibuses
16:52thanks,i have copy the keys in the cloud
BeardPower
16:53Perfect :+1: But make sure your keys are encrypted!
Honorificabilitudinitatibuses
16:53thanks very much
BeardPower
16:53You're welcome!
16:55If you have a (n important) question, it's best to ping some member, so it's easier to see, that someone needs help.
9214
16:55> some member

you mean yourself ;)
BeardPower
16:55Yes, that's also an option :)
16:56With pinning, I am referring to mention his's/her's nickname @BeardPower.
A PM would also do, but maybe others are interested in the topic as well. :)
Honorificabilitudinitatibuses
BeardPower
16:57If you type @, you should get a list of the nicknames.
Honorificabilitudinitatibuses
17:07Can you tell me some medium and small exchanges?
9214
17:18@BeardPower :point_up: :)
BeardPower
17:34Here is a full list: https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/volume/24-hour/

lepinekong_twitter
10:47Is it this coin : RedCoin ?
9214
10:47No, it's not.
rebolek
10:48It's not listed on coinmarketcap.com
lepinekong_twitter
10:49Where it is listed then ?
9214
10:49@lepinekong_twitter https://twitter.com/realRedToken
10:50DDEX, KKCoin
rebolek
10:51Here's a list of exchanges that support Red token. There may be others I don't know about.
* https://www.kkcoin.com/trade
* https://bb.otcbtc.com/exchange/markets/redeth
* https://xstar.io/market?tokenId=&symbol=RED_ETH
* https://ddex.io/trade/RED-ETH
lepinekong_twitter
10:52@9214 thanks. I don't understand on what exchange you can buy red token ?
rebolek
10:52see the list
lepinekong_twitter
10:52@rebolek thanls I was just asking you were quicker :smile:
rebolek
10:52I'm good at that, right, @9214 ?
lepinekong_twitter
10:55I have an account at cryptopia can't red token be listed there ? I don't what it does take to be there but it is a very popular exchange for all alt coins.
10:59https://twitter.com/redlangtoken not taken
rebolek
10:59because it's red community token, not red language token
lepinekong_twitter
11:00https://twitter.com/redcommunityToken not taken either
11:01When you don't know that's what you're going to search ;)
11:07I don't know if twitter supports redirect but if someone cybersquats them...
BeardPower
11:40What about red-la.ng?
9214
11:41red.lang?
BeardPower
11:41Or red-langua.ge?
11:48Is .lang already acknowledged?
11:49red.xxx 😉
9214
11:50xxx + badgers in my head ... :flushed:
BeardPower
11:50:snake:
9214
11:52I'm the bad seed
lepinekong_twitter
13:22 "-" in domain not user friendly to type ;)
BeardPower
16:05unfortunately there is no r.ed ;-)
16:05.ed may not be a problem, but IIRC the minimum characters for a domain is 3.

maximvl
13:30it's a bit late, but still:
http://classicprogrammerpaintings.com/post/169469966514/cryptocurrency-investors-attend-promising-ico
9214
13:31@maximvl you've made my day :D
13:32lol, nice tumblr
BeardPower
13:33:smile:
13:34Senior developer gets interrupted.... ;-)
13:34Notice the beard ;-)
9214
13:35@BeardPower [what happens in gui-branch right now](http://classicprogrammerpaintings.com/post/154462880699/performance-review-paul-delaroche-1833-oil-on#notes)
rebolek
BeardPower
13:36@9214 @qtxie was merging the master branch into the Direct2D branch and fixing a compilation issue for Windows 10.
9214
13:38http://classicprogrammerpaintings.com/post/148027314949/we-rolled-our-own-crypto-pieter-bruegel-the#notes
BeardPower
13:39@9214 ah lol. Sorry, I was not following that link ;-)
9214
13:39http://classicprogrammerpaintings.com/post/147095272429/first-bitcoin-jan-de-bray-oil-on-canvas-1675#notes
BeardPower
13:40I though it was a question ;-)
maximvl
13:42ok it's a lot of fun, but let's stop spamming here)
9214
13:42@maximvl np, I already spamming in chit-chat :smirk:
rebolek
13:42you can't spam in chit-chat
9214
13:43well, duh

9214
23:46https://flawed.net.nz/2018/02/21/attacking-merkle-trees-with-a-second-preimage-attack/
23:53https://lhartikk.github.io/

BeardPower
00:50Nice links.
00:50What history told us: nothing is secure.
CryptoGaston_twitter
11:33What’s up my Brothers?
13:46👋
BeardPower
17:22Welcome!

BeardPower
13:03Just as an info how "desperate" the Banks are in relation to Crypto exchanges. They want to control it by all means:
https://coincentral.com/goldman-sachs-funded-circle-purchases-poloniex-400mln-buyout/
CryptoGaston_twitter
15:30Oh, they want a piece of the action so badly.
15:30https://www.coindesk.com/bank-of-america-outlines-cryptocurrency-exchange-system-in-patent-award/
BeardPower
15:44US trivial patents again...
15:45They can't control cryptos for their own cut, so they try everything from trivial patents, to scare tactics to rolling their own.
15:48Behind the scenes, they all hold extreme amounts of cryptos.

x8x
07:14https://krebsonsecurity.com/2018/03/15-year-old-finds-flaw-in-ledger-crypto-wallet/
BeardPower
10:58Nice one, but the reason why you should never buy from a re-seller despite the statement of the Ledger CTO.
greggirwin
11:00Kids these days. :^\
lepinekong_twitter
12:21@BeardPower do you know Poloniex CEO was a musician freelancer asking for work at 40$ per hour :smile: Unfortunately his site is no more accessible https://www.tristandagosta.com ;)
12:22could only find this residue on archive.org https://web.archive.org/web/20180307035246im_/https://www.tristandagosta.com/self.png
BeardPower
12:23@lepinekong_twitter No, thanks for the info. I just knew that a lot of these exchanges are run by some guys in their 20ties without any background in finance.
12:25The Red foundation should run it's own crypto exchange.
12:25Well, maybe not as it's a regulation hell.
12:26I'm happy with a fancy wallet, which does come as a 100MB install package!
12:26Yes, I'm looking to you. Electron!
lepinekong_twitter
12:29@BeardPower as usual there is a premium to whom enter business first. Running a new exchange is now very hard: marketing cost millions.
BeardPower
12:31@lepinekong_twitter Sure, and they all suffer because they did not plan for scaling.
Marketing may cost millions, but the exchanges are also generation 1 million per day in revenue or even profits :)
lepinekong_twitter
12:32@BeardPower too late and there is huge security risk you can be jailed for that see Mtgox ;)
BeardPower
12:33@lepinekong_twitter Too late for what? To make millions? Not really. Mtgox was jailed because he scammed people.
12:35Security risks, yes, as with other business. Security is mostly broken because people don't follow policies.
lepinekong_twitter
12:47@BeardPower too late because there are a lot of exchanges now, even some with ZERO FEES.
rebolek
12:5340$ per hour? Wow, nice money, where can I get such a job?
BeardPower
12:57@lepinekong_twitter And they are all unregulated, are not scaling, have horrific KYC and customer support, got hacked, are unreliable, are unfair and there is no such thing as ZERO fees.
12:57@rebolek 40 bucks/hour won't get you anywhere where I live, so it's all relative ;-)
12:58Assuming you are not an employee.
13:00@rebolek Time to get the token rain started ;-)
rebolek
13:04@BeardPower Prices here actually aren't that different from Germany. And food for example is usually more expensive. OTOH the quality is worse ;)
BeardPower
13:06@rebolek I'm not from Germany ;-) Sounds like a great place.... Oh, wait... Yeah, we also have pizza with analog cheese from good old America ;-)
rebolek
13:08analog cheese? I am lost.
BeardPower
13:09Sorry, Analogue :blush: Analogue cheese is fake cheese. Invented in the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheese_analogue
13:10Damn auto-correction.
13:11Just let all agree on this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaiSHcHM0PA
rebolek
13:12Analog or analogue, I've never heard that term. Thanks for info.
BeardPower
13:13You're welcome. Geez, we need to create some GOOD gitter app.
rebolek
13:13analogue cheese, I mean, I've heard term analog, I have some analog synths I can hear ;)
BeardPower
13:14If you have the time, just read on the back of some pizza box. You will rarely find REAL cheese on that stuff ;-)
rebolek
13:14I certainly won't stop you from helping work on Gritter :)
BeardPower
13:15:+1:
13:15That "official" gitter app drives me crazy.
13:16Another project for my long queue.
lepinekong_twitter
13:27@BeardPower of course there are that doesn't mean the company doesn't make any money as they are paid to provide liquidity (ie pigeons like any other providers :smile: )
14:00@BeardPower I didn't count how many apps you want to do, I hope you believe in reincarnation to have enough time to finish them :smile:
BeardPower
14:05@lepinekong_twitter It's a question of time management and the introduction of 48h days :smile:

BeardPower
12:53Geez, why don't people in the telegram group get it, that it's not Red, which is rising or falling, but Ethereum?
9214
12:54@BeardPower because... just because
12:56though ETH start to rise recently, no?
BeardPower
12:56@9214 Yeah, and because.
12:57Yes, it's on it's way up.
rebolek
12:57I must have my monitor upside down in that case
9214
12:57Woohoo, we have crypto-related conversation like all big boys do! :baby:
BeardPower
12:57:+1:
12:58@rebolek It's was just a correction :)
13:00The next hours/days will be "judgment days".
rebolek
13:00Why?
BeardPower
13:00And don't forget, you can always short cryptos as well.
13:01Because it will test the recently broken support levels.
13:02Higher Highs, Higher Lows, low volume on supply, high volume on demand, yada yada yada :)
13:06[![eth.PNG](https://files.gitter.im/red/blockchain/A0Ti/thumb/eth.png)](https://files.gitter.im/red/blockchain/A0Ti/eth.PNG)
13:08End of trade-spamming ;-)
9214
14:55@BeardPower this looks like SpaceChem from a distance
BeardPower
14:57@9214 Haha, true! :+1:
15:01It would be a nice project to visualize the blockchain :)
15:01Who "knows" who ;-)
15:02I'm sure every transaction will syphon into your wallet ;-)
15:03Sooner or later :smile:
9214
15:03Me? Wallet? The one that big boys have? :baby:
BeardPower
15:03No, those have deep pockets ;-)
15:05It seems I was not the only one with this idea... https://datalion.com/visualizing-blockchain-7-beautiful-informative-bitcoin-visualizations/
15:06Wow, that's really interesting!
15:06https://dailyblockchain.github.io/
15:06I think I write such a project on my to-do list. Tailored to visualize Red token tips :)
9214
15:10well, now my workday is ruined because I'm stuck watching this animation :D
BeardPower
15:10Lol, yeah. I can't keep my eyes from it.
15:10Boom! A big one, merged from smaller pieces.
15:11Bitcoin proliferation :D
15:12So this is how money is created...

BeardPower
18:16>Bullshit,ico 1:2750,now 1:6875,red is shit

It seems people still don't get it, what the Red token is all about and that it's only bound to Ethereum.

9214
18:17Join me on the dark side, young padawan, quit this room filled with puny mortals. :japanese_ogre:
BeardPower
18:18This happens, when people don't have a clue about tokens and only think about jumping the "bitcoin" speculation bandwagon.

But do they blame themselves for not doing their homework and due diligence? No, they blame others as usual.
18:18@9214 Together we will rule over the galaxy, again!
9214
18:18Yes... yes... a Sith with a purple lightsaber... the prophecy was true...
18:35@BeardPower daddy's back :sunglasses:
18:36gonna back you up there a little while Gregg is away
BeardPower
18:37@9214 :+1: The channel needs some cleanup.

9214
08:53https://davidgerard.co.uk/blockchain/2018/03/24/woolf-university-college-courses-literally-on-the-ethereum-blockchain/
BeardPower
10:25:+1:
9214
10:41@BeardPower wanna swing by our Telegram ghetto?
viayuve
11:34Yo guys how's block chain doing ?
11:34Heard that google also diving in not so bright of them😅
BeardPower
11:44@9214 I now know why you left. The channel transformed into a troll-fest.
11:45@viayuve Which blockchain are you referring to?
9214
11:48@BeardPower it's a refreshing experience. Talking chipmunks with hanging appendages, polite jokes about disabled people. Even bigfoot is here!
11:48Whole brave new world.
viayuve
11:49ETH and how's red price doing
9214
11:49@viayuve ETH recently went up, that's all I can say with my limited knowledge :sunglasses:
BeardPower
11:49@9214 I hope they have strict trolling rules on Mars... To Mars!
viayuve
11:51Elon going to conquer mars lol
BeardPower
11:51@viayuve As @9214 pointed out, ETH is preparing for a bullish market again, so the value of Red will increase.
11:51@viayuve Than also screw Mars. How about Venus or Jupiter?
viayuve
11:52Cool I prefer Jupiter
BeardPower
11:52Maybe we should leave the galaxy? And where are the Sith, when you need them?
viayuve
11:58I heard that China and India blocking crypto but not block though😯
BeardPower
12:00No, they want to block unregulated cryptos, not cryptos per se.
12:01India had plans to block cryptos in general.
9214
12:01IIRC it was said multiple times that 2018 will be a year of regulations.
BeardPower
12:01Japan also warned Binance, as they gave the impression, that they have a license, which they did not. So the moved to Malta.
viayuve
12:01I have seen some news article that they are also blocking bank account of traders bank just want everything under control stupid banks
BeardPower
12:02@9214 Yep, and now you can see, who is running a shady business ;-)
9214
12:02@BeardPower chipmunks? :squirrel:
BeardPower
12:02@9214 If they run Binance, yes lol
12:03Only a few exchanges will survive.
viayuve
12:04sorry but what is malte
BeardPower
12:04Sorry, it was a typo: Malta :)
9214
12:04@BeardPower how do you even know all of this stuff? It's kinda amazing how knowledgeable you are.
viayuve
12:05Malta ?? Is that name of country
BeardPower
12:05@viayuve Well, they need to, as they have to follow anti money laundering rules. There is a lot of money laundering going on on unregulated exchanges.
viayuve
12:06Oh I get it now black money and tax paid white money classic issue
BeardPower
12:06@9214 I worked in the finance industry for a while, trade as a hobby and follow shady companies ;-)
12:06Most exchanges are not doing KYC, but this is a regulation you have to follow!
12:07So the banks block accounts until you completed KYC.
9214
12:08@9214 Know Your Chipmunks :shipit:
BeardPower
12:10And thanks for your compliment!
viayuve
12:10Good than how crypto going to achieve anonymity than bank can know everything I guess😡
BeardPower
12:10And did I mention 48h days? ;-)
9214
12:10[![peaaaachy_by_peachypatrickplz.jpg](https://files.gitter.im/red/blockchain/iGhv/thumb/peaaaachy_by_peachypatrickplz.jpg)](https://files.gitter.im/red/blockchain/iGhv/peaaaachy_by_peachypatrickplz.jpg)
12:11@BeardPower I'm at 27h mark ATM.
BeardPower
12:11@viayuve It can't, as long as fiat money is involved.
viayuve
12:12 Can plz explain how or some article
12:14Fiat money !!! Paper money right?
9214
12:15@viayuve yes, with funny faces and places on them.
BeardPower
viayuve
12:16I like queen with big bun
BeardPower
12:17@viayuve Yes, paper money (our fake money).
12:17@viayuve
>Can plz explain how or some article

Which one?
9214
12:17@BeardPower I'm a [busy dancing ~~killer~~bee](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Icf8tOQMD0), yes. :bee: :musical_score:
BeardPower
12:18A deadly stinger :)
viayuve
12:19I got it no article needed
9214
12:19...except that I don't have anything sharp sticking out of my... well...
12:19busy part
BeardPower
12:20@viayuve :+1:
9214
12:23@BeardPower are there any really good books on a blockchain/crypto subject, both from technological and economic perspectives?
12:25Or just on economy in general. I need to do my homework. :baby:
viayuve
12:26So I buy eth with Fiat money Use one account with kyc send it to someone else that person exchange it with fiat money somewhere other part of the world does that person need kyc approved account if so. Still bank will know not so private they can track or maybe be I am not getting it right
BeardPower
12:27@9214 I never read any "books", but whitepapers and the blogs of the DLT developers.
See this nice list here: https://coinsutra.com/best-blockchain-cryptocurrency-books/ 4. Bitcoin & Cryptocurrency Technologies seems to be a great read.
9214
12:28@BeardPower :+1: thanks!
BeardPower
12:31@9214 You're welcome. Blogs/Tech you should read about, as these are the 3rd generation DLT:
Cardano has some great whitepapers https://www.cardano.org/en/academic-papers/
IOTA: https://www.cardano.org/en/academic-papers/
Pantos: https://pantos.io/
0x: https://www.0xproject.com/
12:32Caradano and Pantos are more "research based". They work together with Universities and various scientists.
12:34@9214 Once you dig a little into the topic, you will easily see, that there is no magic bullet ;-)
12:34Oh, and a must-read: The original bitcoin whitepaper: https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
9214
12:35@BeardPower thank you, much appreciated.
12:35I need 6 more hours in my day though :(
BeardPower
12:37If you are more into a introduction video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBC-nXj3Ng4
This dude makes awesome videos!
9214
12:37@BeardPower yes, I already watched it after /C3 announcement
BeardPower
12:37It's the same video linked in the topic :)
12:37:+1:
9214
12:37it's actually in the header of this room ;)
BeardPower
12:38Yep. I found that out recently :blush:
12:38Didn't know, that I can click/hover over the "..." in the topic header.
12:39@9214 Do you have a basic understanding of public cryptography?
9214
12:39@BeardPower sort of, yes.
12:40I understand the main ideas, it's luck of details that trips me up.
12:40And the progress in the field.
BeardPower
12:40Then you will understand that crypo/DLT stuff with ease.
12:41Smart Contracts: buzzword for code running on some nodes ;-)
12:41I thirst wondered, what the hell these SM are lol
12:42I was kind of disappointed, when reading about them. And that's it? Really? ;-)
12:43@9214 Yeah. I'm sure there were 3 new DLTs invented while we discussed that topic ;-)
9214
12:43It was kinda the same for me after FFT explanation. :neckbeard:
BeardPower
12:46@viayuve
>So I buy eth with Fiat money Use one account with kyc send it to someone else that person exchange it with fiat money somewhere other part of the world does that person need kyc approved account if so. Still bank will know not so private they can track or maybe be I am not getting it right

Yes. The sender needs to do KYC with the exchange and the bank, the receiver has to do KYC with the bank (because he does not buy cryptos for fiat, but sell it).

No, the bank will not know the private key, but the bank can look up the transaction and because of the KYC can link the transaction to the fiat money account.

12:48@9214 Yeah, FFT and iFFT are a hard nut to crack because of the math behind it (depends if you like calculus or not) but the concept is really simple.
12:53@viayuve The private keys is just needed to access the assets, but the public key can be known to everyone. The wallet is derived from the public key.
Wallet: like your bank account. KYC is needed/done to link your personal details to the Wallet. No one except the exchange and the bank would know that info.
Private key: like the right to cash-out on the bank account
12:56Does anyone know the rule-set for disabling post edits here on gitter? Is it time-based or depending on the number of the users, which read the post?
12:59I just realized, that I wrote: "public cryptography" instead of "public key cryptography" :blush:
9214
12:59@BeardPower well, I get what you mean, no worries. :)
BeardPower
12:59But it was too late to edit.
13:00@9214 Yeah, it's a big relief that the people in here are not some brain-dead trolls like most in the telegram group. :+1:
13:02It seems that this is a "free feature" you will get for using Telegram as a communication tool for an ICO: trolling of brain-dead zombies.
9214
13:04@BeardPower instead of "braaaains" they yell "puuuuuump" though.
BeardPower
13:05@9214 It's horrific.
13:07Oops, there was a copy&paste issue with the links (I linked IOTA as Cardano).
Here is the correct link:
IOTA: https://iota.org/
9214
13:16@BeardPower are there any other, smarter and more effective versions of "Proof of Work" algorithms?
BeardPower
13:22@9214 Yes. E.g. LTC (Litecoin) is using a different hashing algorithm, which does not use that much resources. PoW is always about the hashing puzzle, so you can only tweak the algorithm used.
13:22That's why they call it "Lite"coin :)
13:23PoW is abandoned in any newer DLT, as it's wasting too much resources just for solving the hashing puzzle. Newer ones are PoS (proof of stake) and PoM (proof of machine).
13:24Even the new Bitcoin block-chain is moving to PoS.
9214
13:24Ah, so that's what this TLA means :)
BeardPower
13:25Yep :) They are explained in the Cardano and IOTA docs.
13:26PoM is some novice proof used in [LightChain](http://lightchain.one/)
13:29http://bitcoinist.com/lightchain-ushers-blockchain-into-the-millisecond-transaction-era/
13:29@9214 Add another 3h to your day ;-) http://s.iappease.com.cn/lightchain/pdf/LIGHT_wp_v1.01_en_001.pdf
9214
13:33@BeardPower soon pouches under my eyes will be as loppy as one chipmunk's appendages.
BeardPower
13:43@9214 [OTSS](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHV8_kIjTQs&t=43)
9214
13:47@BeardPower gee, my musical answer to you is so underground that even youtube doesn't have this track :(
13:48I heard @greggirwin created /audio room, perhaps I should move there so as to stop annoy everyone with my ungodly musical taste ;)
BeardPower
13:49@9214 That must be some some track! :open_mouth:
13:50Disco Inferno! :smile:
13:52You can paste some test samples in /audio, once there is audio support. If your music taste will be played out nicely, what else could go wrong? ;-)
9214
13:52yeah, to stress test audio codecs and plugins :japanese_ogre:
BeardPower
13:53@9214 's audio benchmark :+1:
9214
13:54I see even @rebolek crossed himself ;)
13:54Ok, going OT now.
BeardPower
14:18:smile:
14:18That's my job ;-)

9214
17:52@gltewalt as far as I know, your address is derived from your public key, and private key is used to access your wallet.
gltewalt
17:56I made a lonnnnng password when I set it up, but I can run the wallet now with no password needed
BeardPower
17:58@gltewalt What was this password used for? As a pass-phrase for the decryption of the private keys or a login to use the wallet?
17:59And which wallet? Ethereum? IOTA? Cardano?
gltewalt
17:59Ethereum wallet
9214
17:59@BeardPower keep it easy, too many buzzwords! :smile:
BeardPower
18:00I saw the posts in red/red.
18:02The long password/passphrase is hashed and this hash is used to encrypt your private key.
A 12- or 24-word list is used to restore your wallet.
18:02You only need the password if you want to send Ethereum.
gltewalt
18:02Ah, ok
18:03Everyone can just send me stuff
BeardPower
18:03Yes.
9214
18:03@gltewalt is that a permission? :)
gltewalt
18:04:smile:
18:04The key that shows under the account in their little app is the public key or 'address'?
BeardPower
18:04@9214 I can give you a promise, that I will receive stuff from you ;-)
9214
18:05@gltewalt address I believe.
18:05Because if it shows your private key you should logout and burn your laptop ASAP.
gltewalt
18:06I don't think it would show the private in the gui, would it?
BeardPower
18:06@gltewalt Yes, the address. The wallet address is derived from the public key, which you don't need.
gltewalt
18:06Since theres no ether in there, I'm not worried about it yet @9214
BeardPower
18:07@gltewalt NO! Never show or give your private key to anyone! If you do, your stuff will be not yours alone anymore :)
9214
18:07@gltewalt well, we have your permission to send stuff, so soon you'll be a billionaire ;)
BeardPower
18:07@gltewalt You don't need to have Ether in there, but you could also tokens in there ;-)
9214
18:08@BeardPower why separation between tokens and cryptocurrency exists by the way?
18:08I thought token is just a "pack" of currency with some ratio.
gltewalt
18:08It just shows oxbb... string next to account
BeardPower
18:09@9214 Tokens were introduced with Ethereum. It's a special feature if that block-chain.
9214
18:09@gltewalt it's an address, you can look it up on https://etherscan.io/
gltewalt
18:09Yep, I see it
BeardPower
18:10Ether is a cryto-currency and tokens are assets you can store on the block-chain.
Transactions are paid in Ether, which is the crypto-currency of the Ethereum blockchain.
gltewalt
18:11Send me ether for all my entertainment value
rebolek
9214
18:11Okay, but how crypto-currency and crypto-assets are different/related between each other?
rebolek
18:11@gltewalt I will send you half of all my ether
gltewalt
18:12Half of zero?
9214
18:12@rebolek wowowowowowow THAT HUGE
18:12**so** generous
rebolek
18:12@gltewalt yeah, sorry :(
gltewalt
18:12:+1:
BeardPower
18:12>I thought token is just a "pack" of currency with some ratio.

No, a token can be anything: money, voting rights, your last will, some music you have, whatever you have in mind.
This tokens have some arbitrary value, which the token minter specified in the smart contract.
9214
18:13And smart contract is..? :sweat_smile:
rebolek
18:13@BeardPower can I send my shitokens?
BeardPower
18:13You need a separation between crypto-currencies and tokens because you can mine the former but only mint the latter.
9214
18:13@BeardPower aah, I see.
BeardPower
18:14But to transfer these tokens, you need to pay with the crypto-currency of the blockchain.
rebolek
BeardPower
18:14Not all blockchains support mining, because they have ZERO fees, like IOTA.
rebolek
18:15@BeardPower let's say I have some RED tokens and nada ETH.
9214
18:15@BeardPower how then blockchain is sustained, if there's no income of currency "out of thin air" (mining)?
rebolek
18:15so I won't be able to send RED to someone?
BeardPower
18:16@9214 A smart-contract is some implemented logic for the token. Once you buy/sell a token, the code will be executed: e.g. voting rights. You have one vote. Once you vote, the vote counter will be decreased, so you cannot vote a second time.
9214
18:16@BeardPower gee, that's simple, why everyone makes it so damn hard? :D
BeardPower
18:16Buy/sell would be transferring a token.
18:17@9214 Because easy shit won't sell as good as "the next big thing" ;-)
gltewalt
18:171 token per iteration of my for loop
BeardPower
18:17@rebolek

>can I send my shitokens?

Sure you can.
rebolek
18:18even when my ETH balance is zero?
BeardPower
18:18@rebolek
> let's say I have some RED tokens and nada ETH.

No, as you need to pay for the transaction fee, which is to be paid in Ether.
rebolek
18:19well
9214
18:19shop closes
BeardPower
18:19@rebolek No, you need to pay the transaction fee.
9214
18:19and what's gwei and gas?
BeardPower
18:19@rebolek Switch to IOTA. There is NO FEE!
rebolek
18:19@9214 funny names for small amounts of ETH
BeardPower
18:20@9214 Gwei is just like cent is for USD/EUR :)
9214
18:20christ, people really need to invent buzzwords for that?
BeardPower
18:20Yes, fancy names for different "cent" amounts.
18:21@9214
Gas is just a fancy name for the Ethereum "fuel", Ether :)
rebolek
18:21@9214 no, they don't. But, gosh, do they *looove* it.
gltewalt
18:21'cost'
BeardPower
18:21gas price and gas limit :)
18:21Yes, the costs.
9214
18:21And the fuel is..? :suspect:
gltewalt
18:21ether
9214
18:21That doesn't tell me anything.
gltewalt
18:21fighting spirit
BeardPower
18:22You can compare it to your car.
Fuel: diesel or gasoline
gas price: price of diesel or gasoline
gas limit: how much of diesel or gasoline you want to have in the tank
9214
18:22I feel that I'm in a "Monad is a monoid in the category of endofunctors" problem :)
rebolek
18:22@9214 :D
BeardPower
18:23Just fancy names:
WEI 	1
Ada 	1000
Fentoether 	1000
Kwei 	1000
Mwei 	1000000
Babbage 	1000000
Pictoether 	1000000
Shannon 	1000000000
Gwei 	1000000000
Nano 	1000000000
Szabo 	1000000000000
Micro 	1000000000000
Microether 	1000000000000
Finney 	1000000000000000
Milli 	1000000000000000
Milliether 	1000000000000000
Ether 	1000000000000000000
Einstein 	1000000000000000000000
Kether 	1000000000000000000000
Grand 	1000000000000000000000
Mether 	1000000000000000000000000
Gether 	1000000000000000000000000000
Tether 	1000000000000000000000000000000
9214
18:23I see. I get it. I get it all.
greggirwin
18:23y'all are writing faster than I can read.
BeardPower
18:23@9214 Haskel! ;-)
gltewalt
18:23Bolek 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
9214
18:23People just have nothing more to do with their lives but to invent new buzzwords for different numbers.
greggirwin
18:24I started a place to keep some notes: https://github.com/red/red/wiki/Blockchain-resources
rebolek
18:24@gltewalt I'm afraid it's more like 0.000000001
9214
18:24Bolek = 80131000
BeardPower
18:25The "fuel" price is measured in "gwei" :)
9214
18:258013 is "Bole" in leetspeak and k is "kilo" or 1000.
greggirwin
18:25I have my own currency names.
penna
nikka
quotta
dolla
fyva
tenna
twenna
fifta
hunna
9214
18:26Y'all insane.
rebolek
18:26@gltewalt so I would like to send you half of my shitokens (worth $0.03), but I can't because my ETH balance is zero https://ethplorer.io/address/0xdd2e7c8cf17077c86adeff73229017240b266091
greggirwin
18:26So broke you can't even pay attention?
9214
18:26@greggirwin niiiiice!
rebolek
18:27hahaha
gltewalt
18:27Smart contract is code in a blockchain. Which in my case is a simple foreach, but I charge 20 gwei per iteration
greggirwin
18:27It's an old joke. :^)
9214
18:27@BeardPower you've raised a kingpin.
BeardPower
18:27@rebolek Also keep in mind, that sending a token will cost a minimum of 20 gwei :)
rebolek
18:28@BeardPower yeah, that's another interesting aspect of shitokens
18:28it's basically more expensive to send them than to keep them
BeardPower
18:29@9214 :)
greggirwin
18:29@BeardPower, which is where we could use a sidechain or private accumulators, for micropayments?
rebolek
18:29@greggirwin which means writing your own infrastructure
BeardPower
18:30@rebolek Yes, that's why BTC is not usable for micro-transactions any more, because the fees are higher than your assets are worth.
gltewalt
18:30Isn't it a bit sticky right now, since RED is riding on ethereum? Some costs will be incurred.
rebolek
18:30BTC is crazy and Lighting won't solve it, but that's, just, like, my opinion, man.
BeardPower
18:31@greggirwin Yes, you can store transactions on an off-chain, but as soon you need to settle the transactions (store it on the online chain), you need to pay for it.
9214
18:31https://iota.readme.io/docs/general
> Java requirement

no thx
BeardPower
18:32IOTA does not has a fee, because every transaction you do will calculate prior ones. "Mining" is implicit.
greggirwin
18:32We need to solve the cost problem. @BeardPower yes, but by aggregating things the tx cost per token goes down when you settle. Many things to consider.
BeardPower
18:32@9214 Yeah, unfortunately it's implemented in Java, but you can just implement the spec in Red ;-)
rebolek
18:33@BeardPower what's with the number nine in IOTA, btw?
BeardPower
18:34@greggirwin Yes, you only have to pay for one block, if the miner will pick up all your transactions :)
18:34But your transactions could still end in different blocks.
gltewalt
18:35What prevents MIM where someone can spoof your address?
rebolek
18:37@gltewalt private keys
BeardPower
18:37@rebolek It will make your seed more secure: 27 times 81 vs 26 times 81 possibilities.
gltewalt
18:37And can you protocol analyze a section of the internet and dredge for orphaned transactions? (Where coinage was sent to an address that doesn't exist)
BeardPower
18:37Seeds can have collisions, so you add the number 9 to mitigate it.
rebolek
18:38@BeardPower yeah, but why not full 36^81 or other number than 9. I don't get it and I'm curious.
BeardPower
18:38@gltewalt You cannot send to a non-existing address.
gltewalt
18:39Isn't 9 the number of completion?
BeardPower
18:40@rebolek Because they found it reasonable big enough. I will look up the idea behind it in the whitepapers (if I can find it).
rebolek
18:41@BeardPower that still doesn't explain why they chose 9 instead of -, 4 or some other symbol :)
BeardPower
18:42@rebolek Here you go:
In IOTA there are 3 security levels to choose from. Low tier (81-trit security), Mid tier (162-trit security) and High tier (243-trit security). It basically determines how much effort is put up in generating (i.e. hashing) your address.
gltewalt
18:42Casting out 9s? Digital roots?
BeardPower
18:42
Checksum

A checksum is an extra security check which ensures that the generated address is correct and was not altered in any form. A checksum in IOTA is an extra 9-characters (or trytes) which are added to the address
9214
18:43> trytes

...
BeardPower
18:43Shamelessly copied from here http://www.iotagenerator.info
9214
18:43There can be only one [trite](http://doom.wikia.com/wiki/Trite)!
BeardPower
18:44Hehe :D
18:44@gltewalt I don't remember exactly. There was some whitepaper about the math involved. Have to look where it is :)
9214
18:48@BeardPower I still don't get the concept of "fuel" :confused:
BeardPower
18:48@greggirwin There are way better alternatives to Ethereum: less resources, faster, lower fees, better features.... ;-)
18:48@9214 It's just the name for the transaction fee. :)
18:49The transaction needs fuel -> Ether ;-)
9214
18:49Buzzchain!
BeardPower
18:49If the transaction runs out of gas (money), you will get a "Out of gas" error message.
18:50fuel, gas all the same thing :)
18:50fuel drives the Ethereum block-chain :)
9214
18:50@BeardPower and transaction fee is how much you pay to miner?
BeardPower
18:50fuel drives a car
18:51@9214 Yes. There is a minimum of 21 gwei (sorry, I first said 20) for sending to a contract address (tokens, smart contracts).
gltewalt
18:51@9214 Have you every played arcade games where you have to insert a coin to play for a period of time or until lives are lost?
BeardPower
18:52The more you will pay, the more likely it is to be picked by a miner and processed.
9214
18:52@gltewalt I vaguely recall playing street fighter on arcade machine.
gltewalt
18:52The coins you fed to street fighter was the gas
BeardPower
18:53Here you can calculate the best values, depending on the load :)
https://www.ethgasstation.info/
9214
18:53@BeardPower and you increase the gas if you want transaction to be processed faster?
BeardPower
18:53BUT sending to a contract address will ALWAYS cost you a minimum fee of 21 gwei.
gltewalt
18:55gas as in fuel, petrol, бензин
9214
18:56These analogies don't tell me anything, really.
BeardPower
18:56@9214 Yes, you would increase the gas price. The higher the price the more money a miner will get. gas is spend in "blocks". That's why you need to set a gas limit. Calculation takes some time, so you can ran out of gas, if the calculation takes too long. You can always set the gas limit to it's maximum, as you will be refunded with the remaining gas.
18:56@gltewalt Exactly.
9214
19:06@BeardPower simple and clever ideas overly obscured with little details, handwaving and buzzwords :confused:
gltewalt
19:06What do you want to clarify? Basically they charge for transactions or work done
BeardPower
19:06@9214 Well, I'm trying to explain it:
Imagine you have a car. It has 60 liters of gasoline in the tank and it's using 1liter/km, so you can drive 60km. You want to drive 60km. You pay 1 EUR for 1 liter of gasoline so you have to spend 60 EUR.

Now, the fuel is the gasoline called Ether. You have 10000 gwei in your wallet, it's using 21gwei per calculation, so you can have about 48 of calculation rounds, gas price is the price for the fuel. You pay 21 gwei for 1 round of fuel so you have to spend 10000 gwei.

When you drive along, your car is using gasoline and when you reach 60km you are out of gas.

When a miner is processing your transaction, he is using fuel/Ether and when he spent 10000 gwei he is out of gas.
19:06@9214 Yep.
9214
19:08@BeardPower what if transaction is out of gas but still unprocessed?
gltewalt
19:08That's how I feel about haskell monad. "Just write a plain explanation!"
9214
19:08It won't be included in the chain?
19:09I just said that this analogy is kinda misleading, but I get the main idea.
BeardPower
19:09@9214 Yes, your transaction will be unprocessed and you will not get back any Ether you spend for processing it.
19:10@9214 Yeah, because driving a car will get you a certain distance. The half-processed transaction will not :)
9214
19:11But I can drop the car and go hitchhiking.
BeardPower
19:11@9214 Yes, it will not be included into the chain.
19:11@9214 Exactly :)
19:12That's why the Car analogy is a little misleading, as you said. But it's useful to get the idea :)
19:13Ethereum and Bitcoin are not ideal DTLs. They are 1st and 2nd gen.
19:14They are too slow, too expensive, to inflexible, have scaling issues....
9214
19:14Yeah, I see why. Some ideas just sounds too bad, on intuitive level.
gltewalt
19:14Maybe they should use batteries. Your batteries are dead
BeardPower
19:15Yeah, something more IT related.
19:15You are out of bug-killer ;-)
9214
19:16@BeardPower me?
gltewalt
19:16Out of coffee
You too poor
Oh... You almost had it
BeardPower
19:16@9214 That's why there are 3rd and 4th gen DLTs like IOTA, Cardano, LightChain, NEO etc.
19:17@gltewalt Something like that, yes :) You paid for a lawyer, you are out of money. Try again with a new one :)
9214
19:17@BeardPower are there more "proof of *" ideas, aside from PoW and PoS?
gltewalt
19:18Smart Contracts... kind of like charging for mainframe time 1000 years ago?
BeardPower
19:18@9214 Yes, Proof of Machine (PoM).
19:18@gltewalt You nailed it ;-)
gltewalt
19:19And the cloud = dumb terminals
9214
19:19@BeardPower got any link for this concept?
BeardPower
19:19Yes, with the difference that the processing nodes are decentralized.
9214
19:19PoS seems more suitable in RED case.
19:20i.e. for intra-community economy.
BeardPower
19:20Yep.
19:20IOTA would be perfect for it. Zero costs and you can use an off-line tangle.
19:21Or any other DLT with minimal fees (1/1000 of a dollar cent or so).
19:21Settlement/transaction times are near real-time.
19:22@9214 We could exchange tokens for free as much as we want and still have to pay zero, nada, niente, nichts!
19:23And in near-realtime ;-)
19:23They also support e-voting.
9214
19:24As I understand it, each blockchain wired to its own crypto-currency?
19:24If so, what's the crypto on IOTA?
19:27@BeardPower perhaps we can move such discussions to Telegram, otherwise that place looks like a graveyard of fallen speculators ;)
BeardPower
19:28@9214 Yes. The crypto on IOTA is called MIOTA (million IOTA).
19:29@9214 Yeah, good idea :)
19:30The forbidden zone :smile:
greggirwin
20:24Would someone like to scrape some of the best bits of this chat and update the wiki? I'll owe ya'.
9214
20:24It's kinda 1:30 AM here.
BeardPower
20:25If it's okay within the next 24h, sure :)
20:28I can add some alternative DLT we should consider for Red.
greggirwin
20:30"Someone" doesn't have to be you @9214. :^)

> You cannot send to a non-existing address.

You can't send to *invalid* addresses, but any *valid* address, correct? So "non-existent" is a poor way to phrase it.
BeardPower
20:30@greggirwin Yes.
greggirwin
20:31Cool, thanks. Something to improve in my next talk.
BeardPower
20:31You can only send to incorrect addresses. Eg. sending a BTC to an ETH address.
20:32If you do that, your assets will be gone forever.
20:33The ETH is still valid, but not a BTC address. So, maybe there is even a better term for it.
greggirwin
20:37So that really is a non-existent, or "can never exist" address model. So many nooks and crannies.
BeardPower
20:39Well, there is no such thing as a "non-existent" address. The address has a checksum, which the client/miner/nodes check. If the address is "invalid", these entities woldn't let you.
20:39So there are valid and invalid addresses.
20:40Incorrect addresses here means: not the address you intended to send to.
20:41If the address is valid, but incorrect (a different wallet), your assets are gone. You would need to ask the wallet owner to send it back to you.
20:41But you can never send to e.g. 0xBADBEEF or so.
greggirwin
20:41I meant regarding your comment of:

> You can only send to incorrect addresses. Eg. sending a BTC to an ETH address.
20:42So an address could be non-existent in terms of a particular currency, but still be a valid address.
BeardPower
20:44Yes.
20:46Just a correction, it's the other way round: When sending a different currency to a BTC (Bitcoin) or BCH (Bitcoin Cash), your coins will be lost forever.
20:47Yes, the ETH address is a valid one, but a non-existent one for BTC.
20:49Invalid is kind of non-existent (Mathematicians would of course beat me for that one). It's just word-picking. It's because of the naming schemes of cryptography. A hash is either valid or invalid. There is no non-existing hash.
20:49Because there is always some sort of hash :)
20:50Hashes also have collisions, so yeah. Better use valid and invalid.
20:53If you want to know the correct mathematical models/naming you need to dig through the brain-breaking math of Galoa fields and rings and other beasts and dragons :)
21:00Let's just some it up:
- there is no such thing as a non-existent address
- there are valid (valid for the corresponding DL: they only belong to the corresponding DL),
- invalid (invalid for the corresponding DL; maybe belong to a different DL) and
- incorrect addresses (valid addresses, which the user did not intend to transact with)
greggirwin
21:18some = sum ;^)
BeardPower
21:21lol :blush:
21:21I hate that gitter app....
21:21What is the trigger, which disables the Edit functionality??
21:23Maybe it's time for sleep ;-)
21:24And of course, I meant "sum" :)
9214
21:25> Maybe it's time for sleep
21:25tried, didn't work ;)
BeardPower
21:26Yeah, I have some interesting stuff, which needs my attention :smile:
21:52@9214 Did I mention, that Cardano is written in Haskell and has the Symbol ADA? ;-)
gltewalt
22:41What exchange should I use when the ether floods in?
BeardPower
22:44This depends on your needs:
- Fiat/Crypto exchange
- Crypto only
- KYC/no KYC
- Order size
- US residency
- Only transfer tokens or trade Ether
ne1uno
22:56Coinbase on Twitter: "We’re excited to announce our intention to support the Ethereum ERC20 technical standard for Coinbase in the coming months. https://twitter.com/i/web/status/978345541053530113
BeardPower
22:58Coinbase and GDAX is the same company. You first need to be listed on GDAX.
23:00Which is expensive.
gltewalt
23:03For exchanging to USD.
23:03Is the RCT address, symbol and name listed somewhere?
BeardPower
23:06It's on KKcoin: https://www.kkcoin.com/trade?symbol=RED_ETH
23:07Kraken is one of the exchanges, which were not hacked yet: https://www.kraken.com. You need to go through KYC tho.
gltewalt
23:07I thought RED was RedCoin
BeardPower
23:08No. RedCoin has nothing to do with Red :)
23:08It's another cryptocurrency.
gltewalt
23:08Right, but that's the symbol
BeardPower
23:09No, RedCoin is RDD :)
gltewalt
23:11The stuff im seeing via google is RED for the symbol
BeardPower
23:12https://etherscan.io/token/0x76960dccd5a1fe799f7c29be9f19ceb4627aeb2f
23:13>The stuff im seeing via google is RED for the symbol

Because the exchanges have no clue about the correct naming of currencies/tokens.
Some list the RedCoin as RED.
gltewalt
23:13Well there are several sites out there that are wrong then
BeardPower
23:14Yes, they are all but professional!
gltewalt
23:14That's kind of an issue. Or could be a PR issue.
BeardPower
23:14Guess why they are moving to other countries ;-)
23:15Because they are unregulated and give customers the impression they are.
gltewalt
23:15jerks
BeardPower
23:16>Or could be a PR issue.

No, it's just because they have no clue. They name it however they see fit.
gltewalt
23:16Do we need a bot that searches for erroneous pages and fires off angry emails?
23:17*note*: Make note on where to look in some web page
BeardPower
23:18There is an international naming scheme for currencies: EUR, USD, HKD, just like the top level domain names of the corresponding countries. X is for country-less/global currencies, as there is no country starting with an x. So it would be named XRD. Bitcoin -> XBT and so on.
23:20@gltewalt Yeah, but I'm sure that they would not care.
23:21Some of the exchanges need MONTHS to do KYC!
If they have scaling problems, they just halt trading or even withdrawals of your assets!
23:21They take fees, which are 20-100 times higher than in Forex!
gltewalt
23:21Blockchain web search: "Nope your info is wrong, we aren't listing it"
BeardPower
23:21Get hacked, lose assets and more: are scammers.
23:22@gltewalt What blockchain web search?
gltewalt
23:22Oh that was just a musing
BeardPower
gltewalt
23:23Or.. wikipedia turns DAPP?
BeardPower
23:23Some exchanges only take new customers with a minimum deposit of 10k USD, like Bitfinex.
23:24Everything is turning DAPP these days :)
gltewalt
23:27I can see all kinds of uses where integrity is important. I guess it's a matter of speed and efficiency in a lot of cases, though
BeardPower
23:29Yeah, all 1st and 2nd gen DLs suffer from that.
23:32They can only do a handful of transactions/s. Around 100 or even less. The 3rd/4th gen DL can do >100k and even target >1million t/s.
DASH - 10 transactions per second
Ethereum – 20 transactions per second
PayPal – 193 transactions per second average
Visa – 1,667 transaction per second
Ripple 1000-24000 transactions per second

viayuve
06:34Any new trusted exchange yet for red
BeardPower
rebolek
viayuve
10:08😂😂😂😯😅
x8x
11:27Nice motivation post from my dream girlfriend ;-) https://medium.com/mycrypto/the-decentralized-future-is-people-49c566a88d66
BeardPower
11:31>People before Profits

That's a noble goal, but profits pay my dues, not people ;-)
11:31>A white paper is not a product. A dude who is going to flip your token next week for max profit is not a user.

Amen to that one.
11:32But again: no money, no project :)
9214
11:32no Mill, no future.
BeardPower
11:33That's the spirit!
9214
11:33and, the worst, no RDM...
rebolek
11:33no :bear: lot of relief
BeardPower
11:33But no 30million USD, no Mill :)
rebolek
11:33no :bear:, no endless hours trying to find problem in my code
BeardPower
11:33Everything stands and falls with RDM.
9214
11:34@rebolek problem is never in the code ;)
BeardPower
11:34It's always PEBKAC!
rebolek
11:34it's always in the code
9214
11:34@rebolek no, it's always in the *data*
rebolek
BeardPower
17:29I assume diamonds are not only "the girl's best friend" ;-) http://carats.io/
gltewalt
18:04@9214 Your turn to shoot poison arrow at :bear:
9214
18:05I don't shoot bears. I just ask them to leave in a very convincing tone.
BeardPower
18:07@9214 [Prove it](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vRiA91O14U)
gltewalt
18:08I wonder if similar code ‘claws’ in interpreter
abdllhygt
9214
20:18hi @abdllhygt , are you in crypto world now? :sunglasses:
abdllhygt
20:18haha, yes : ) redcoin is based on eth or neo?
9214
20:19@abdllhygt RED (not redcoin) is an ERC20 token, based on ETH.
abdllhygt
20:19hmm i see
20:19do you have it?
9214
20:20@abdllhygt no, not yet :)
abdllhygt
20:20do you think to buy? : )
BeardPower
20:20He's waiting for the "dark side" version of it ;-)
9214
20:20You can buy it on exchanges I believe, if there are offers.
BeardPower
20:21Or just exchange with other token holders.
9214
20:21@abdllhygt no, I'll wait for retroactive rewards and play around (learn how to buy/sell/tip etc) with other inexperienced members.
BeardPower
20:21It's 8 USD cent at the moment.
20:22Unfortunately there is no IOTA token of Red, so we could play around a little.
abdllhygt
20:22what is darkside version?
BeardPower
20:22@abdllhygt It's just a joke, as @9214 is evil ;-)
20:23Star Wars, you know :smile:
abdllhygt
20:23i didn't watch it : )
9214
20:23Everyone just keep saying that :disappointed:
abdllhygt
20:23i should quit now, see you
BeardPower
20:23The Red token will use other DLs in the future.
9214
20:23@abdllhygt :wave:
BeardPower
20:24Bye.
20:25@9214
>Everyone just keep saying that :disappointed:

What exactly? That some people did not watch SW or that you are evil? :)
9214
20:25@BeardPower both!
BeardPower
9214
20:25My touchy Sith feelings are deeply offended!
20:25I demand a compensation.
BeardPower
20:26Do you have a wallet? :D
9214
20:26As a matter of fact, I do!
BeardPower
20:26Really? :+1:
20:26Which one?
9214
20:273 clicks away from you.
BeardPower
20:28We could create some IOTA wallets, buy some little MIOTA and play around with it.
20:28As it's free.
9214
20:28@BeardPower I believe there're some "testnets" on MetaMask.
BeardPower
20:28Yep.
20:29Transactions just take a few minutes.
20:30But sure, you can use the test-nets for getting a hang of it.
9214
20:30Gee, is there any way to delete accidentally created account on MetaMask? :confused:
BeardPower
9214
20:31Duh.
BeardPower
20:31You cannot delete a wallet.
20:31But why does that matter?
9214
20:31Well, not delete, but hide it from my list.
BeardPower
20:31IIRC that is possible.
9214
20:31I love thing tidy and organized. :neckbeard:
BeardPower
20:32Just a tip: create a wallet for each transaction ;-)
20:33You can have as many wallets as you like.
20:33They don't cost a thing, except a Ripple wallet.
20:34Using a new wallet with every transaction will be more secure and more "anonymous".
9214
20:34Is there a possibility that the pool of addresses will be exhausted sooner or later (like with IPv4)?
BeardPower
9214
20:35Why? :smile:
BeardPower
20:38Because the address space is 2^160 :D
9214
20:38well, but if each person in the world will create new address for each transaction..?
BeardPower
20:40Even if every human being on earth would create 1 billion addresses it would be peanuts :D
20:41It's a number with about 48 zeros :D
greggirwin
20:42I think this was one I found some time back, that I liked: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9JGmA5_unY
BeardPower
20:43@greggirwin :+1: They make AWESOME videos.
9214
20:47@BeardPower what was the resource for gas/gwei calculations and such?
20:48And why I need to calculate them in a first place?
BeardPower
20:48@9214 There are about 30 million Ethereum accounts to date ;-)
20:49https://ethgasstation.info/
20:50You need to calculate them to get your transaction through within a guaranteed time.
9214
20:52Why all the complications, I don't get it :smile:
BeardPower
20:53@9214 Because you are a console hacker ;-)
You can just go the easy route by letting your client automatically calculate the fees.
20:53With the cost of higher fees/fees wasted ;-)
20:53You don't have these issues with IOTA -> ZERO costs ;-)
9214
20:57@BeardPower I heard you the first time, no need to repeat yourself. ;)
BeardPower
20:57:smile:
21:29@9214 How are you getting along?
9214
21:36@BeardPower Me? It's 2:30 AM here and I'm reading a book on language development in hominids. :alien:
BeardPower
21:39Ah, I see. I have 2 ETH in my test wallet.
9214
21:39I played with sending/receiving ETH on MetaMask testnet, yeah. Gwei/gas part is still confusing.
BeardPower
21:39In case you want to test something.
9214
21:41Well, you can tip me some and then I will run away and won't give you your ETH back.
21:41I'm evil, remember? :smiling_imp:
BeardPower
21:41It's simple: every transaction is put in a pool, where miners pick them out: the more they are worth, the higher the chances are you will get picked. Any fee below 21 gwei will end up in the pending pool ;-)
21:42@9214 It's fake money, remember? ;-)
9214
21:44You sound very convincing, human. :alien:
BeardPower
21:45The force, it's just the force.
gltewalt
21:49Still accepting ether as a test. :wink:
BeardPower
21:50Unfortunately my Ether is stuck, as it's value is below the minimum amount.
9214
21:51And me with @rebolek are broke :(
gltewalt
21:51If I get a chance for ‘me time’ later I will set up some IOTA type thingy
BeardPower
21:51:+1:
9214
21:52there's no emoji of Purple Hen so I'll improvise now:
IOTA! ZERO FEE! FREE FOREVER! -- :purple_heart: :chicken:
BeardPower
21:52@9214 Message received ;-)
9214
21:54> It's simple

@BeardPower it **is** simple, but there're this buzzwords like "gwei" or "gas" which are totally confusing. Oh, and calculations.
BeardPower
21:54Nerds tend to invent "strange" buzzwords.
9214
21:55Is "buzzword" a buzzword? :confused:
BeardPower
21:55No:
>The Concise Oxford Dictionary defines a buzzword (hyphenating the term as buzz-word) as a slogan; or as a fashionable piece of jargon.
9214
21:56> fashionable piece of jargon

It's all about :sparkles: fashion :sparkles: :lipstick: :purse:
21:57Ok, 3 AM, I'm loosing control over my dark powers.
BeardPower
21:57So many shoes....
9214
21:57So little time...

abdllhygt
06:52the whale came : P
rebolek
06:57Hi whale!
abdllhygt
06:57@rebolek how are you, do you have RED?
rebolek
06:58@abdllhygt it depends
abdllhygt
06:58how?
rebolek
06:58I have 20 RED on Lomo, where is minimum withdrawal 50 RED and fee is 25 RED.
06:59So theoretically yes, I have RED, but I can do nothing with it :)
abdllhygt
06:59how much dollars, 1 RED?
rebolek
06:59around 0.07 I believe
abdllhygt
06:59I have coins in bittrex and i can't take
06:59similar problem
07:01do you think to buy RED?
rebolek
07:01When I have some spare money, I would like to.
abdllhygt
07:03hmm, i guessed maybe red team was giving you and @9214 : )
07:03because you work about red-lang
rebolek
07:23I don't work for Fullstack, I'm just trying to answer questions.
9214
08:17@abdllhygt I'm not working, I'm hanging around and helping ;)
abdllhygt
08:18yes i mean these : )
BeardPower
10:53@rebolek
>around 0.07 I believe

Currently 0.08 :)
9214
11:03Let's bring @rebolek to the moon :smirk:
BeardPower
11:04Purple Hen is working on it.
rebolek
11:05@BeardPower on which exchange?
BeardPower
11:06@rebolek https://www.kkcoin.com/trade?symbol=RED_ETH
11:09Maybe we can get Red into some ETCF :)
rebolek
11:11East Texas Communities Foundation?
BeardPower
11:12Sorry, I will try to write out the abbreviations from now on :)
ETCF: Exchange Traded Crypto Fund
11:14It's a basket of different tokens: e.g. IT, healthcare, industries etc. If this basket is traded, every token will benefit from the strong ones.
11:14The "blue chips" will pull the minors.
11:15It will also spread the risk.
11:16It's like an ETF (exchange traded fund), but with the difference, that the assets are ERC-20 tokens instead of stocks or other assets.
11:19You could also buy my token. When I'm winning you are winning too, but you also lose when I'm loosing. If I win, I get a fee paid from you, so I'm incentified to do my best to win.
rebolek
11:29KKcoin API is pretty crappy
BeardPower
11:35Yes, as every exchange.
11:35I hope CM (CoinMetro) will be better.
rebolek
11:36
>> do %exchange-reader.red
DDEX: 0.00045
KKCOIN: 0.00016
OTCBTC: 0.0004

Xstar is missing, they do reading with JS and I haven't found any API of theirs.
11:45And with USD price, because that's what everyone cares about apparently
>> do %exchange-reader.red
DDEX: 0.00045 ($0.2089107)
KKCOIN: 0.00016 ($0.07427936)
OTCBTC: 0.0004 ($0.1856984)
9214
11:48Pump! Pump! Pump!
11:49Ah, sorry, we're not in Telegram room. :smirk:
dockimbel
14:07@dockimbel banned 9214
9214
14:11@dockimbel for one sec you gave me heebie-jeebies! :scream:
14:14Now I'm all twitchy and gray-haired :older_man:
14:15More to the point, last article mentions "... setting up Ethereum node ..." - can anyone explain what is a node and what "setting up" means?
BeardPower
18:06A node stores a copy of the Ethereum blockchain. All of these nodes together form the Ethereum network.
They pick the new transactions, mine Ethereum, confirm transactions, create and execute smart contracts and secure the blockchain. Anyone can run a node.

Setting up a node means installing and running the Ethereum command line tools (eth) or the Mist wallet.
9214
18:15... is it klingon or elven? :thought_balloon:
BeardPower
18:18Neither, it's Parseltongue.
gltewalt
19:31Means your Mist wallet app thingy takes an hour for everything to fully load
BeardPower
19:59Something like that, yes.
20:00But @9214 already knows a solution to all these issues. Right? ;-)
gltewalt
20:24If I let my node run, do I slowly earn ether or do I have to be a miner?
rebolek
20:27@9214 you need to be a miner.
9214
20:28I'm a *dancer*, not a miner.
rebolek
20:28Node is great if you want to have overview of all transactions.
9214
20:29So, "setting up node" is just doing a transaction and then tracking all other blocks after it?
rebolek
20:29@9214 no, you do not need to make a transaction to have a node.
20:30Node has full copy of blockchain.
9214
20:30Like copy full?
rebolek
20:30like copy/deep full
BeardPower
20:32@gltewalt You need to be a miner, yes.
9214
20:33And after that you can run sort of a "dedicated blockchain"?
20:33For some group of people/customers.
20:33That is, to create a little inter-community economy.
BeardPower
20:34You could create an off-line chain, yes.
20:36A "test" net.
9214
20:37Even J's trains of verbs and gerunds are simpler than modern blockchain :confused:
rebolek
20:38@BeardPower did I? Where?
9214
20:38You can add bindology on top of trains and it still will be digestable.
20:38@rebolek https://gitter.im/red/blockchain?at=5abbfabf27c509a774b3c4e1
rebolek
20:39@9214 blockchain is supereasy
9214
20:39... that's what true Illuminati would say.
rebolek
20:42@9214 @BeardPower I see, it was typo. As on your side ;)
9214
20:432^256 security!
BeardPower
20:4432 byte security ;-)
rebolek
20:46
> @rebolek Why did you answer the question of @9214 by sending it to @gltewalt?>
9214
20:46https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1Y73sPHKxw
BeardPower
20:54@rebolek :)
20:55I'm the master of typos :)
20:56Is anyone of you using the gitter app for Windows? I want to log in through github but all I see is a white blank page.

ne1uno
00:50I've used it, no better than a tab in chrome. hard to scroll back,, it keeps resetting to the current message
BeardPower
03:33@ne1uno Thanks. So there is not really some useful gitter app.
ne1uno
03:46@rebolek had gritter, maybe the mobil app is better? haven't tried either
03:48I'm using the irc.bridge from github but it's pretty bad. there is no screen positioning. you just get the channel stream, edits and all.
dockimbel
03:49@9214 We are setting up our own Ethereum node (just one for now, more in the future when scaling up will be needed), so we can propose "light" clients (like the Red Wallet) to our users, without requiring them to install and sync a node on their local computer (though they could still do that if they want).
rebolek
06:42@ne1uno I still have :) I'm waiting for text-box! release to improve the UI, core is updated regularly, as I use it for stats.
dockimbel
09:02@rebolek Working on text-box! today, to define a better API and tighter integration with View engine.
rebolek
09:06Great news!
dockimbel
09:08@rebolek I will post some notes about the required changes for current text-box! in red/red later today.
BeardPower
10:54RTF! Yay!
12:28RTF (Rich Text Format).
rebolek
9214
12:30@BeardPower I thought it's Russian Tandava Fella?
rebolek
12:31Definitely.
12:31It would be nice to get rid of https://github.com/rebolek/gritter/blob/master/rich-text.red
BeardPower
12:35@9214 :smile: I have no clue what that is ;-)
rebolek
12:37custom rich text implementation, not text-box! based.
BeardPower
12:37Finally we can create blinking text (the coolness factor of HTML 4 :smile: ).
rebolek
12:38hmmmm
BeardPower
12:41Does it make sense to create a Markdown/Asciidoc DSL?
12:42It's because I'm using Atom with the MD/AD live preview plugins.
12:42But they are Electron bloat!
rebolek
12:47I wrote Markdown DSL for R3 and would like to rewrite it for Red also, as I need it from time time.
BeardPower
12:51Is there anything you guys did not write for Rebol/Red yet? ;-)
12:51It feels that I need to get out the "big guns" to level the field :smile:
rebolek
12:52There still lot of things that aren't done :)
BeardPower
12:53Is there some curated list?
rebolek
12:53I don't think so.
BeardPower
12:54Maybe that will change, once the new website and a "wishlist" is released.
12:55Oops, we are in red/blockchain. Sorry.
9214
12:55Tssk.
BeardPower
12:56Sometimes that gitter site kinda freezes. It marks a different channel than the real one. After refreshing, it marks the correct one.
12:57Well, it's back to normal.
9214
12:58Still in the wrong room. ;)
BeardPower
12:58Damn gitter!
12:58lol
12:58WTH....
ne1uno
13:23why is refreshing and rebooting still the number one debug technique?
BeardPower
13:23Because we only have bloated and bad written software.
ne1uno
13:23not to leave out reinstalling
9214
13:24Wrong. Room.
BeardPower
13:24Geeez! ;-)
rebolek
13:24Anarchy in the blockchain.
9214
13:25It's *my* lawn!
greggirwin
19:40@BeardPower I tried the gitter app a long time ago, and it was...not great.
19:43We have https://github.com/red/red/wiki/Blockchain-resources if someone wants to pull helpful messages, definitions, etc. and put them there.
19:44Keep @BeardPower from having to repeat himself too often. :^)
BeardPower
19:57Why are most apps either bloat or crap? Or both?
19:58@greggirwin I need to fill the wiki over Easter :)
greggirwin
19:59@BeardPower because programmers travel in vast, grazing herds.
BeardPower
20:04:+1:

careck
19:48Hi @greggirwin @dockimbel, are there any plans to integrate with Hyperledger?
greggirwin
22:33@careck, not at this time. They have a *lot* of sub projects, and not a clear vision I could find about how they all tie together. Their tech is widely varied, with some projects having a lot of dependencies. So the question of integration is really "how?". e.g., is ILP the key, or being parallel projects to each of theirs, done in Red? How do you see Red integrating with them, and how deeply do you know their tech?

BeardPower
02:10There are also other projects, which try to combine every DLT.

x8x
16:33Trezor Scooter wtf! :-P
https://blog.trezor.io/introducing-trezor-scooter-blockchain-ico-token-sale-e5fb51370443
9214
18:28http://hipstafridge.me/
18:28https://go-review.googlesource.com/c/go/+/103862
18:29I'm too late with that though ;)
BeardPower
18:51What the...
9214
18:56@BeardPower [lololol](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2gFj3oFRcI)
BeardPower
18:58@9214 That's my stress-managment ;-)

peterkwok2018
02:31😀

meijeru
09:32@qtxie Just started to look at the Red Wallet. Impressive amount of work already done, but not much testing, apparently. Example: the list of urls in the block explorers (line 35 of wallet.red) is wrong: .../tx/ should be .../txs/ in all three cases. Not worth an issue, because I suppose it will break the very first test...
09:37Trezor Scooter: the Red wallet contains a line ;#include %trezor.red. Be prepared!
BeardPower
09:40@meijeru /tx/ is correct, as the Red wallet shows the specific transaction. /txs/ shows the transactions of a wallet/block.
meijeru
09:42But the url ending in /tx/ gives an error when you go to it.
09:47I see now, it needs a number... Good thing I did not make an issue!
BeardPower
09:49Yes, it needs the Tx ID.
09:50Which is appended by the wallet code.
9214
11:44https://peepeth.com/welcome blockchain-powered microbloging
x8x
11:49haha this guy made 120k http://Uetoken.com
BeardPower
11:56People are just stupid. ICO? Well, I contribute to sell it after the ICO for a fast buck.
meijeru
12:54Peepeth uses te IPFS (InterPlanetary File System). Something for Red to connect to?
dockimbel
12:56@meijeru Yes, we plan to provide access to IPFS from Red.
meijeru
13:02:+1: Does that mean you will be adding the ipfs:// protocol?
dockimbel
13:03@meijeru Yes, indeed. ;-)
gltewalt
18:43With ethereum wallet, which network should I be on?
9214
18:53the main one?
gltewalt
18:55On the main one, but it's an eternity waiting for all blocks
18:55There is Main Network, Solo Network, and two test networks
rebolek
19:22test networks are for testing
19:23> it's an eternity waiting for all blocks

I haven't got a chance to test Red wallet, but if it's working as a full node then it must download whole blockchain and that takes some time, it's tens of GBs.
gltewalt
19:45Hopefully it will be quicker than this electron solidity thing
BeardPower
20:36The Red wallet is not a node. You don't need to download the blockchain.
20:46There will be a Red full node and the Red wallet will interact with it.

gltewalt
01:35How can I circumvent this ethereum wallet and send the ETH that went to its address, to the CoinBase address?
01:36Ballance wont show up in ethereum wallet, but it shows in Etherscan
dockimbel
03:28The Red wallet is a light client of a full node provided by the Red Foundation. So, you don't have to sync a node locally if you don't want to.
BeardPower
11:04@gltewalt Which Ethereum wallet? You just enter the CoinBase address as a recipient address.
11:06The blockchain needs some time to sync. It should show up as soon the transaction has the amount of confirmations set by CoinBase.
11:08https://support.gdax.com/customer/en/portal/articles/2430150-how-to-deposit-and-withdraw-digital-currencies#times
14:45Another promising DLT. Free, PoS and instant transactions: https://nano.org
gltewalt
16:54Mist
BeardPower
18:07You don't need Mist. Just use a light wallet.
18:08A very nice DLT! Condition based payments and much more: https://byteball.org/
9214
18:09> **bind** the payment to a condition

hehe bwoi :sunglasses:
BeardPower
18:33Don't bind me, bro!
greggirwin
18:36The Nano wallet is a 22MB download.
9214
18:37Eww!
BeardPower
18:40Yeah, it's considered small, compared to other wallets.
greggirwin
18:40I was going to say. Down to 22x our size. They're getting closer. ;^)
9214
18:41How large is Red wallet though (haven't checked it yet)?
greggirwin
18:41<1MB.
BeardPower
18:41Yep.
18:42And it will even stay below 2MB with a fancy UI.
greggirwin
18:43Because we won't use raster images, but @toomasv and @rebolek will create amazing draw graphics.
BeardPower
18:49@BeardPower also.
greggirwin
18:59With The Matrix and Transformers no doubt.
BeardPower
19:01It's so unfortunate, that OpenVG never took of.

BeardPower
13:25A very nice DLT/Project presentation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ROVH_NP11Q
greggirwin
20:50@BeardPower, key points from it? I started watching, but it's a lot of similar intro material. I'll read up on Tangle though.
BeardPower
21:22@greggirwin Smart Contracts as a layer on top of IOTA to tokenize everything without any transaction fees and instantly.
x8x
21:43:+1:
greggirwin
22:11Thanks!
BeardPower
22:32You're welcome! A lot is gong on with IOTA recently.
Non-profit organization in Germany, new tech on top of the tangle and new wallets (which are really fancy and feature-rich):
https://blog.iota.org/trinity-desktop-alpha-d41a0bbf934a
https://blog.iota.org/trinity-wallet-march-update-40dcb720976f
22:39Maybe there is some inspiration in there ;-)

BeardPower
15:33Always do your due diligence!
https://www.ccn.com/over-and-out-savedroid-ico-makes-apparent-exit-scam/

Phryxe
10:24> Because we won't use raster images, but @toomasv and @rebolek will create amazing draw graphics.

Is this for real? :clap:
rebolek
10:25What?
Phryxe
10:26I quoted @greggirwin ... Are you doing the GUI?
10:35I guess not :mute:
BeardPower
10:42@Phryxe @greggirwin just pointed out, that the UI will/could be using vector graphics, not raster images.
10:50Members of the community have the skills to implement the UI with draw.
rebolek
11:08@Phryxe oh, I see.
greggirwin
21:25Sometimes dangerous to say things lightly, because Red makes them possible. :^)

In talking about modern UIs, and how to create nice ones, most systems use enormous raster image assets, because...I guess they don't care about size. We can do that too, but how said will it be to have a 1MB app with 30MB of graphics that just make it shiny. Well, maybe not sad, as it add to the user experience, but we should be able to do better, don't you think?

@rgchris did beautiful, small work in R2, and a combination of small raster images, draw, and effects pipeline should allow us to build nice looking GUIs without bloat.
21:26That said, just using raster images for skinning can be very simple, and is a viable choice. Just with different priorities.
BeardPower
21:31@greggirwin
>I guess they don't care about size.

Well it's a combination of PS skills and lacking Illustrator skills. It's harder to pull of effects with vector graphics than it is with raster graphics.
Most UI kits are not vector based, Adobe killed SVG and yes, no one cares about size (yes, I'm mlooking to you, Electron!).

UI for Apps don't need raster graphics, games are different in that regard.
greggirwin
21:38But we should be able to apply the effect pipeline after rasterizing, so we will get overhead, based on face size, no way around that, but not AOT.
BeardPower
21:40Yeah, sure. Effects are cheap on the GPU.

pekr
02:55@BeardPower What do you mean by Adobe killing SVG?
BeardPower
10:28Adobe had an SVG viewer for the browser.
10:28https://www.adobe.com/devnet/svg/adobe-svg-viewer-eol.html

meijeru
13:17@qtxie Out of interest, I compiled the current version of the wallet. The UI (window) has no operative elements (everything greyed out) -- I suppose that is on purpose. BUT, the compilation gave warnings, see below.
---------- Capture Output ----------
> "C:\Program Files (x86)\Red\red.exe" -r -t Windows C:\Users\Eigenaar\Projects\Red\wallet\wallet.red
-=== Red Compiler 0.6.3 ===- 
Compiling C:\Users\Eigenaar\Projects\Red\wallet\wallet.red ...
...compilation time : 2618 ms
Target: Windows 
Compiling to native code...
*** Warning: LOWORD macro in R/S is redefined
*** Warning: HIWORD macro in R/S is redefined
...compilation time : 68447 ms
...linking time     : 628 ms
...output file size : 1035776 bytes
...output file      : C:\Users\Eigenaar\Projects\Red\wallet\wallet.exe 
> Terminated with exit code 0.
x8x
13:52@meijeru You'll need to have a Ledger Nano connected to enable UI functionality.
qtxie
13:53Yes. It's on purpose. It's usable only if it detects the ledger key.
meijeru
13:59What about the warnings? HIWORD and LOWORD are defined in %runtime/platform/win32-ansi.reds
BeardPower
14:13@meijeru It's because the wallet code re-defines them.
14:14@meijeru Well, not the wallet, just the HID lib.
https://github.com/red/wallet/blob/0d99f42711e0d46d11eb49716105c485cf0e549b/libs/HID/windows.reds#L33
meijeru
14:36In the wallet folder:
#define LOWORD(param) (param and FFFFh << 16 >> 16)
	#define HIWORD(param) (param >> 16)

In Red toolchain:
#define LOWORD(int) (int and FFFFh)
#define HIWORD(int) (int >>> 16)

14:36These are not identical.
BeardPower
14:38Well, they are.
14:39Besides the unsigned right shift and the signed right shift.
14:39<< 16 >> 16 is meaningless.
meijeru
14:39Since the Red toolchain definitions are Windows-specific, it is understandable that compilation for another target does not show these diverging definitions. However, they are a source of confusion and possible error. Unless someone convinces me of the contrary, I will make an issue.
BeardPower
14:40Yeah, I also wondered why this strange code with the left and right shift is in there.
14:42But as the wallet is still in flux, I accepted it silently ;-)
14:43Thanks for creating an issue!
meijeru
14:45OK Issue will be made. #3354

x8x
02:46MyCrypto Desktop released (alpha) 208MB.. on macOS https://download.mycrypto.com/
03:23Well the desktop app combined with the Parity Signer mobile app is an improvement vs the MyCrypto/MEW/MetaMask combination https://wiki.parity.io/Parity-Signer-Mobile-App-MyCrypto-tutorial
03:38Humm, maybe not, can't import a current wallet in the Parity Signer, oh, after reading the docs, create a new account, choose an icon, THEN change the mnemonic (impossible on IOS..) just bad UX.. back to waiting for the Red Wallet to support software wallets ;-)
BuilderGuy1
03:46@x8x have you used the new Parity UI for Parity 1.10 ?
x8x
03:48my second try with a MyCrypto/Metamask transaction, UI shows approved, but nothing happen and the bug is https://github.com/MetaMask/metamask-extension/issues/3881, not alone, and this should just works.. poor grandmother!
BuilderGuy1
x8x
03:50I'll probably use a command line JS wallet until the Red Wallet supports soft wallets!
03:50@BuilderGuy1 didn't try that, is good?
BuilderGuy1
03:52no. the 2 part installer was missing dependancies. Once I got that fixed, I can't figure out how to run it ! I'm no expert but c'mon! The previous one would auto launch your browser, this does nothing.
x8x
03:53Improving! ;-)
BeardPower
10:41@x8x Electron. Noooo....
10:42Is bloat the new normal?
10:43Red needs to step in quickly! Red to the rescue!
greggirwin
21:30It's hopeless. We'll never be able to create an app as big as theirs. ;^)
BeardPower
21:37Lol 🤣😂

qtxie
00:57@BeardPower The left and right shift is for keeping sign. If LOWORD is a negative number, when doing this int and FFFFh in R/S, it will become positive number.
meijeru
07:20@qtxie Is that same precaution necessary in the toolchain (or at least not harming)? Then you could harmonize the two versions and use only one definition, with less chance of errors and also avoid a warning from the compiler.
qtxie
07:36@meijeru Yes. That would be better to use just one. I'll have a look at it.
BeardPower
07:59@qtxie Sure, thanks for the reminder! But why is the sign even needed? Don't we just want to get the LOWER 16 bits here? What is the purpose of keeping the sign if it's not even the same value after bit-masking the value?
dockimbel
08:00I get more and more issues with MyEtherWallet, I have switched to our own wallet since a few days to do all the transactions.
BeardPower
08:00@dockimbel What are your issues?
dockimbel
08:01Random error messages, timeouts on sending transactions, freezing Nano S key...
BeardPower
08:02I see. I never used MEW with a hardware key, as I don't trust this browser thingy.
08:06@qtxie
What is the point in re-creating the original value?
>> a
== -25
>> (a and FFFFh)
== 65511
>> to binary! (a and FFFFh)
== #{0000FFE7}
>> (a and FFFFh << 16 >> 16)
== -25
>> to binary! (a and FFFFh << 16 >> 16)
== #{FFFFFFE7}
08:08Btw., the binary representation setting is not working. It should print with a base of 2, but is still using the base of 16:
>> system/options/binary-base
== 2
dockimbel
08:31@BeardPower It depends if you are using 2 signed or unsigned 16-bit values stored in a 32-bit word.
08:33The wallet macro does a sign extension, while the core one does not. So it seems to me that the macro names in the wallet code should be renamed to reflect their signed values support.
08:37Such macros will be changed anyway once we add support for int16!.
BeardPower
08:46Speaking of int16!, any news on int64!?
08:48@dockimbel
>It depends if you are using 2 signed or unsigned 16-bit values stored in a 32-bit word.

But FFFFh would give us the signed 16-bit values in a 32-bit word.
08:51<< 16 >> 16 is just shifting out and in FFFFh and there is no change at all.
08:57But I get what you mean :)
08:57I guess, I'm just in the "algorithmic vs. logical shift" tunnel currently.

gltewalt
03:43MetaMask gives a Ethereum Phising warning for a Red tutorial site
03:43Don't click if you're extra cautious, but it's this link: http://red-rvc.droppages.com/
greggirwin
05:51@gltewalt where did that link come from?
gltewalt
05:56Rudolph Meijer sent me a list of links for the Unofficial Tutorials page in the Wiki
greggirwin
05:59@gltewalt do not include that link in anything.
gltewalt
05:59I left it out
meijeru
06:33I see now that its author is timeserieslord, a person banned from these chats. I will remove it from my own links as well.
gltewalt
06:36:+1:
x8x
08:52about that link, droppages.com is flagged in EtherScanDB, see here https://github.com/MrLuit/EtherScamDB/blob/d289e1dc40258a6138c51658178e0d227ca79eb2/_data/metamaskImports.json#L333
08:53https://etherscamdb.info/ is used by MetaMask and others

pekr
11:15Does anyone know Dascoin? The local group of small investors I was once talking about, seems to be oriented that way. Dunno, if it is just yet-another-cryptocurrency stuff, or anything special? :-)
BeardPower
11:39@pekr Yes, I know them. They want to tokenize a lot of things with it: healthcare, fashion, music...
11:39Instead of using fiat money, their vision is to use their coin for buying real stuff.
11:41They have different block-chains for all kind of stuff they tokenize: healthcare-blockchain, fashion-blockchain, music-blockchain....
rebolek
11:41Do they have blockchain-blockchain also?
BeardPower
11:46@rebolek Yes.
11:47DasNet will host a range of interoperable blockchains from the world of fintech to fashion and everything in between.
11:48Kind of ;-)
11:48It's similar to https://pantos.io/

BeardPower
20:43Finally! https://qubic.iota.org/
20:43For now, in brief: Qubic enables Smart Contracts, Oracles, Outsourced Computing and lots more.
greggirwin
21:03@BeardPower, wow, epic music and video. I expected to see some superhero fly by.
BeardPower
21:05@greggirwin Totally! I was WOWED. Counting down the 23rd century :-)
greggirwin
21:09Still pretty sure https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSdhEflcPvU should be our superhero mascot. Yeah, AntMan is more current but...
BeardPower
21:11New Red trailer/teaser?
greggirwin
21:11I can do the voice over, but not much more.
BeardPower
21:11@9214 Are you in for the body double? :smile:
greggirwin
21:12Absolutely! Including all appendages.
BeardPower
21:13But I guess this would fit him better ;-) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sj6-LG5VpGk
greggirwin
21:14[RedAntVO.mp3](https://files.gitter.im/red/blockchain/LfuP/RedAntVO.mp3)
21:14I used to do a great Muttley laugh.
21:15Maybe a bit OT. Sorry folks. :^)
BeardPower
21:20lol :+1:
21:22Sounds a little like the characters from Team Fortress 2 :-)

9214
11:36https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfylJy_nMbM
BeardPower
13:00@greggirwin Can you also do voices like the Minions? ;-)
BuilderGuy1
21:49@greggirwin LOVED the sound byte ;-)
greggirwin
22:09[RedMinion.mp3](https://files.gitter.im/red/blockchain/pcVr/RedMinion.mp3)
22:09@BeardPower
BeardPower
22:10lol Awesome!
22:10C++ Noooo. A real Red ninja :-D
greggirwin
22:11It's just a dialect. ;^)
22:11RedMin...ion.
BeardPower
22:13https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1_K-KkEGpk

abdllhygt

x8x
16:11https://github.com/BlockchainDevs/CryptocurrencyAwesome
16:21Please post here single entries if you find any good :smile:
BeardPower
18:23Great links.

abish121
07:03Hey guys I am thinking of an idea of an independent judicial system.
07:04But I am not able to think of how to apply the blockchains concept to it
07:04can you please guide me
greggirwin
16:31@abish121 We don't have the resources to consult on broad ideas at this time. If you can ask very specific questions, we may be able to offer small suggestions.
abish121
16:33sorry sir i m not clear about my idea
16:33so leave it
greggirwin
16:36Ideas take time. Keep working on it, and search for other projects that might be similar.
x8x
19:10https://twitter.com/el33th4xor/status/997083849954914304
abish121
20:05@greggirwin thanx

x8x
07:11Ouroboros Genesis: Composable Proof-of-Stake Blockchains with
Dynamic Availability https://eprint.iacr.org/2018/378.pdf

BeardPower
18:21The Red wallet works really nice. Way faster than the Ledger Nano S apps.

viayuve
04:30@BeardPower line to exe plz.
04:30*link
9214
04:31@viayuve https://github.com/red/wallet
viayuve
04:32Thanks @9214
BeardPower
10:22@viayuve No executable yet, just source code. You need to compile it yourself.
9214
10:31And you absolutely should do so when it comes to a wallet app.
10:31@9214 TRUSTNO1
BeardPower
10:51Ain't no one!
dander
16:48is there really a difference if you don't thoroughly read/understand the sources though? It's a high bar.
rebolek
16:54 you can lose money ;)
dander
17:37I just mean that most people don't have the capability to exhaustively vet the code that they run, even if it is of high importance, like a crypto wallet. Saying "you should understand/compile the thing from sources" sort of implies that the people who are qualified to use crypto currency is a very small pool of highly technical users. Eventually you need some sort of system of trust for broader use. If you want to really go down the rabbit hole, you are also trusting the OS code you're running, because it could arbitrarily alter things in your applications... But I guess everyone assumes OS vendors aren't going to do that because people would eventually find out, and they would go out of business. I don't really want to start a debate about it. Just pointing out that security is hard, and it's an easy trap to just put the onus on users
rebolek
17:45> you are also trusting the OS code you're running, because it could arbitrarily alter things in your applications

Right. It's the same with the wallet app. Actually I don't think you need to compile it yourself if it's served from HTTPS with hashes available to check integrity *and* if you trust the source of the app (like Red wallet from Red team is certainly more trust-able than myamazingredwallet.com for example).
Another thing is that there are no officials exes available AFAIK, so you have to compile it yourself, but that's because Red wallet is still in alpha IMO.
dander
17:46Right, I agree the current way is appropriate
BeardPower
21:21The Red wallet will be amazing :smile:
21:21The best since sliced bread.
greggirwin
21:41@dander, you're right on all counts, and we have had a *lot* of chat about this. How best to secure things, and make it easy for users to know and trust that they have a valid build, when it will be a huge target for hackers. Basically, you can never trust the client app to validate itself. Users can't vet them either, as you noted. So we need *something* we can trust. We'll do a couple easy things to start, and see if we can build tools to help others facing the same problem. From there, we either have to become a reputable and trusted source, or a group of like-minded people and projects need to create that trusted source.
21:42The easy thing is really easy, and @x8x already has that in place. Basically, you just drop the exe on a page we provide, and the hash is vetted against a list of known, trusted builds.
gltewalt
23:18Polling for hash differences on startup? “Does my hash still match the master hash?”
ne1uno
23:19sounds like a job for a blockchain
gltewalt
23:20Ohhh yeah
dander
23:57@greggirwin one thing that will go a long way in my mind is how clear and concise the Red code is, which should make it much easier for various experts to vet, so trust can spread out more easily

rebolek
14:57Achievement unlocked: trading RED tokens from Red console.
9214
15:02On the Mill?
rebolek
15:03not yet :worried:
15:04On i5 or i7, I'm not sure
BeardPower
15:06@rebolek You definitely need to be Purple enhanced by RDM.
rebolek
15:07RDM?
BeardPower
15:07@9214 Will you explain or should I? ;-)
rebolek
15:07I know :)
BeardPower
rebolek
15:08Anyway, I was purple when I was implementing Bibox API, their documentation is less than adequate.
BeardPower
15:09Yeah, why is it, that every crypto exchange API sucks...
15:10I still dream of a global usage of DTC.
rebolek
15:10Well the API has its problems but the main problem is lack of documentation. Lot of what is needed to do successful call is missing there.
15:11Erm, another TLA.
BeardPower
15:11We definitely need some term base/glossary.
15:12[Data and Trading Communication](https://www.dtcprotocol.org/)
rebolek
15:14thanks, I'll take a look
BeardPower
15:15Red / R/S is missing some features for implementing a DTC server/client.
15:15Like 64bit and ports.
rebolek
15:20But it's adequate enough to support APIs of at least 5-6 exchanges :)
BeardPower
15:21Absolutely.
15:22SC (Sierra Chart) supports a lot of feeds/brokers, so you could connect to a SC instance on the net and trade through the Red console.
15:22But it's using DTC.
15:23REST and websockets are fine, the API fragmentation is not.
15:24DTC would solve that. Once you implement DTC you would be able to connect to any broker, that is using DTC.
15:25You could also create a DTC <-> API bridge.
15:26So when will you port this one? ;-)
https://github.com/ccxt/ccxt
rebolek
15:26I'm not porting CCXT.
BeardPower
15:26Becaaauuuusse?
rebolek
15:27Because I have dialect that I'm using and am adapting various exchanges to it.
BeardPower
15:27Ahhh. That's great.
rebolek
15:28Nothing against CCXT, but it would be additional work for me.
BeardPower
15:28I only tried it for a short time. The tools using it are, well, let's call them "sub-optimal".
15:29But maybe you can use this for inspiration regarding features: http://www.zorro-trader.com/
15:31Part of my Red/Trading running on Red/OS running on the Mill plan ;-)
15:32@rebolek Do you take suggestion for exchanges?
15:33Need to augment my 300 RED.
rebolek
15:33There's this classic example at http://www.rebol.com/docs/core23/rebolcore-15.html#section-9.4 -
total: 0
parse [
    sell 300 shares at $89.08
    buy  100 shares at $120.45
    sell 400 shares at $270.89
] [some rule]
print ["total:" total]

I'm rewriting it for crypto. And it works :) At least on Bibox, Binance, Bitfinex, Bittrex and Coinbase.
BeardPower
15:33Yeah. I LOVE that example!
15:34I collected some ideas regarding a trading DSL!
rebolek
15:34@BeardPower I do take suggestions. But I have to be able to make an account on such exchange to test it.
BeardPower
15:34For indicators, straregies, you name it.
rebolek
15:35That's why I still haven't implemented Kraken because it's shitty and I'm not able to make an account there.
BeardPower
15:35@rebolek Sure. Not an issue. I can give you some of my demo accounts if you have troubles with creating an account.
rebolek
15:35@BeardPower what exchange do you have in mind?
BeardPower
15:36I had no issue with Kraken. They had some scaling problems.
rebolek
15:36Maybe I was trying to use it in the time of their scaling problems.
BeardPower
15:36I would be happy to share my DSL ideas with you. And sorry, my animation stuff is still not uploaded. I'm swamped with work.
15:37Need to get some stuff sorted.
rebolek
15:37Just contact me privately, so we do not pollute this channel for others.
BeardPower
15:37Sure!
greggirwin
17:48@dander yes, we have some security people auditing the wallet code now. Our small code sizes make it appealing to security experts.

@rebolek the easiest way to trade RED is to be a Red user. :^)
rebolek
17:51@greggirwin well... it's to see :^) back
greggirwin
22:09https://blog.valid.global/tech-update-1-ad0024e6cfc4
BeardPower
22:11I'm curious if my data would be as valuable as from celebrity X ;-)
greggirwin
22:20More valuable. Less popular. :^)
BeardPower
22:21Hehe :+1:

rebolek
07:54Red is on coinmarketcap - https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/red/
endo64
07:58Cool!
BeardPower
09:02:+1:
dander
17:20wow, already 2M USD trade volume / 24h

dsgeyser
09:37The Red wallet will operate mainly on Ethereum? Seeing that the Raiden and LN implementatuons are currently in test mode and the timeline for practical implementation is uncertain at best, when and how will the Red wallet be used? (micropayments)
rebolek
10:22@dsgeyser Red token runs on Ethereum, so Red wallet will also IMO.
BeardPower
10:23RED is an ERC20 token, so the Red wallet needs to operate on whatever Ethereum operates on.
10:24This does not mean, that the Red wallet will only offer functionality for the Ethereum blockchain in the future.
rebolek
10:25In the future.
BeardPower
10:25For the time being, it supports RED and ETH.
10:26@rebolek hm?
dsgeyser
10:26@BeardPower But sooner-to-market payment functionalty will probably make use of Raiblock.
BeardPower
10:26Ethereum is not a great choice for micro-payments.
rebolek
10:27well in the future it can power space ships ;)
BeardPower
10:27@rebolek That's for sure.
10:27Working on it ;-)
10:28@dsgeyser Yes, Nano (formerly known as Raiblock), IOTA and DigiByte are good candidates for micro-payments.
10:29The former two are fee-less, the latter has very little fees.
10:31And ByteBall, of course.
dsgeyser
10:32@BeardPower Micopayments can be any amount, not limited only to small amounts, on these blockchains ?
BeardPower
10:34@dsgeyser Yes. micro-payments are just too expensive on the other DLTs (fees are more expensive than the payment). Fees are not pegged to the amount of your transaction. They are always ZERO for Nano and IOTA.
10:37DigiByte has always the same fee. 0.0001 DGB. It's close to ZERO. 1000 transactions would cost you 1 USD cent.
10:38Same for ByteBall.

x8x
11:54https://medium.com/daml-driven/a-new-language-for-a-new-paradigm-smart-contracts-648cc30294ad
11:54https://daml.com/
BeardPower
12:43That thing looks very nice, indeed!
17:44https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/14/bitcoin-and-ethereum-are-not-securities-but-some-cryptocurrencies-may-be-sec-official-says.html
18:24https://www.reddit.com/r/Buttcoin/comments/8qw7am/university_of_texas_in_austin_expose_blatant/
x8x
20:17Pretty sure quant at hft companies have to cope with much larger datasets than a couple hundred GB of blockchain data

dockimbel
16:31https://www.red-lang.org/2018/06/red-wallet-tiny-simple-fast-and-secure.html
rebolek
18:03:+1:
toomasv
18:26Congratulations!
WayneCui
23:08cool

planetsizecpu
10:25Go on Red team, go for it!

x8x
15:25RadarRelay out of beta, include trading apis https://medium.com/@RadarRelay/were-ready-let-s-onboard-the-world-to-the-token-economy-1a85315556f2
BeardPower
15:48https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3195066
9214
15:49@BeardPower I believe you already posted that one?
BeardPower
15:53@9214 I thought the same.
9214
15:54:older_man: :question:
BeardPower
15:55I was not able to find it on gitter, so I thought it does not hurt to post it again.

BeardPower
20:27https://cointelegraph.com/news/tech-giant-intel-partners-with-dapp-platform-enigma-on-privacy-research

BeardPower
12:26https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/06/22/intel_tlbleed_key_data_leak/
x8x
19:3480% of bitcoin mining in China? Not true and on the contrary pretty well distributed https://bitnodes.earn.com/ (this list nodes, but aren't mining units nodes?)

dockimbel
01:55@x8x Number of nodes <> hashpower.
x8x
01:57Yes figured that out and mining pools are often hidden behind a single node
03:35https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MjcsFRvXVM
BeardPower
08:28You can just hide by using VPNs, so these numbers have to bee taken with a grain of salt.

BeardPower
23:37https://bitcoinist.com/bitcoin-price-lows-high-time-for-facebook-to-buy-coinbase/

BeardPower
20:52https://latesthackingnews.com/2018/06/16/syscoin-cryptocurrency-client-has-been-hacked/
21:11https://coinjournal.net/report-more-than-us750m-stolen-from-crypto-exchanges-in-first-half-of-2018/
x8x
21:34@BeardPower That's quite some money.. Who is the lucky winner? ;-)
BeardPower
21:36One thing is for sure: not me :smile:

rebolek
04:42If it was you, we already had Mill. :smirk:
BeardPower
08:23@rebolek absolutely.

BeardPower
09:56This is exactly why one should not use a browser-extension for dealing with private keys: https://mobile.twitter.com/myetherwallet/status/1016542460552495104
wh33lhouse_twitter
12:56Agreed!!

BeardPower
20:32https://leonardorender.com/
gltewalt
20:56Huh?

https://www.glennbeck.com/2018/01/11/glenns-predictions-on-cryptocurrency-for-2018/
BeardPower
21:51It's a cloud renderer on the block-chain.

abdllhygt
17:50what do you think about #MCH [metahash](https://metahash.org/)?
greggirwin
18:34Hadn't seen it. Just glanced. Big team. Small number of repos. The client app is a ~75M download. Looks like scaling and speed come from layers around layers around blockchains. Looks like it tries to solve every problem, and even let you write smart contracts and apps in PHP.
abdllhygt
19:43@greggirwin small number of repos means it's bad?
19:43you mean about github sources, true?
19:44i saw fast transfer, tracechain and mining system
19:45mining system look like neo. but mch makes mch.
19:45i think to enter this ico
greggirwin
21:08Doesn't mean it's bad at all, though one of them does just have a unicorn picture, and some seems to have no activity. The main repo is only a couple months old, and they have a very large team page, and only a few devs it seems.
21:08Looks like they come from old ad tech, and may pull in more from that.
BeardPower
21:12Why is every DLT claiming that it has real-time properties? 3 seconds for a confirmation is NOT real-time. The usual BS claims.
21:13A DLT with fees will die soon anyway.
greggirwin
21:18@BeardPower is there a quick answer to how fee-less DLTs incentivize nodes/miners?
BeardPower
21:20@greggirwin Yes, there are no miners. Every node is doing the PoC/PoS of 3 previous transactions. There are no incentives beside having a fee-lees system and industry backing.
greggirwin
21:20So the answer is industry backing. Got it.
21:21Which opens conflict of interest questions. Interesting. Thanks.
BeardPower
21:22Yes, car and energy companies use it currently for some PoC projects and it's funded by the EU (smart city incentive).
21:23They got funded with 20million EUR.
21:42Geez, another Electron bloat crying for Red: https://medium.com/nanocurrency/weekly-project-highlight-canoe-c31ae122b28c

x8x
18:15Some good reading on Ethereum Layer 2 (suggest reading 1 than 2):
1) https://medium.com/l4-media/making-sense-of-ethereums-layer-2-scaling-solutions-state-channels-plasma-and-truebit-22cb40dcc2f4
2) https://karl.tech/plasma-cash-simple-spec/
.. and if you are lazy reader, watch this video, it will motivate you to read the 2 links :smiley: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTc_2tyT_lY

x8x
20:47A Crypto Skeptic view https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/31/opinion/transaction-costs-and-tethers-why-im-a-crypto-skeptic.html

dsgeyser
10:33Hodly wallet. Any good?

lepinekong_twitter
12:08What about Red for Safe Network App https://safenetforum.org/t/rebol-a-language-for-safe-apps/590 ;) https://safenetwork.org/
https://i.imgur.com/h25revY.png
BeardPower
12:48Well, I don't see any added value compared to using a cloud service. The only difference is the fragmentation of files and P2P. Files are encrypted and you can do the same in clouds, so nobody can access the content of files as well.
12:51This is nothing new. Bittorrent is a very old concept.
12:55Not everything needs to be "blockchained". It's similar to the REIR (rewrite everything in rust) syndrome.
rebolek
12:55heretic!
greggirwin
19:46@lepinekong_twitter, like so many experimental projects, Red could be applied, but we don't have the resources to pursue them all.
lepinekong_twitter
20:25@greggirwin it's just for info ;)

abdllhygt
19:23can someone say about red prices
19:24ico price and now price?
BeardPower
19:49ICO: 0,40 USD NOW: 0.03 USD
abdllhygt
19:49really? : ) why?
BeardPower
19:50Speculators and Ethereum price.
abdllhygt
19:51hmm, so it's good time for buying RED
19:54i bought MHC with my all money
greggirwin
20:21RED doesn't really have a USD price though. It's relative to Ethereum. And since we want to focus on the tech side here, the best thing to do is just look at https://coinmarketcap.com/ directly.

BeardPower
10:38This tech sounds promising: https://metahash.org/
abdllhygt
10:52@BeardPower did you read the pdf?
BeardPower
10:54@abdllhygt Yes, why?
abdllhygt
10:56@BeardPower just asking,i guess it will be like IOTA
BeardPower
10:57:smile:
10:58Well, not really. MH supports mining and has transaction fees and is decentralized.
abdllhygt
10:59@BeardPower I mean about famous
BeardPower
10:59Has Smartcontracts built-in, different consensus, a crypto-currency.
11:00Ah. Yes, we will see.
abdllhygt
11:00i guess some people think it will fight with ETH
11:01Do you follow some ICO?
BeardPower
11:01Yeah, it's way superior.
11:01Yes, some exchanges and tech companies.
11:02But most stuff I follow are IPO/VC, not ICO.
abdllhygt
11:03Someone said; some coins increase 160x
11:04ipo = airdrop?
BeardPower
11:04Yes, some even made 4000% in a day.
11:05No. IPO is Initial Public Offering. A company going to list on a stocks exchange.
abdllhygt
11:06Ohh, except about coin
BeardPower
11:07Yes.
abdllhygt
11:08What do you think about MHC's price?
11:08For example, if Binancetake it?
BeardPower
11:13I think it has potential but I'm not much of a fan of Binance.
abdllhygt
11:14about price?
11:14now 0.039$
BeardPower
13:06Yes. This is what it will cost you.
13:06Based on the current ETH/USD rate.
abdllhygt
BeardPower
13:17It's still in the ICO phase.

BeardPower
19:49So it begins: http://www.cocosbcx.io/en/
abdllhygt
20:21About Cocos2d Engine?
BeardPower
20:23Yes. It's the Cocos2d-X engine on the blockchain.
abdllhygt
20:23hmm i see
BeardPower
20:23I wondered about the timing, after they denied a take-over offer from Amazon of 600million USD.
greggirwin
20:48https://www.mckinsey.com/business-functions/digital-mckinsey/our-insights/blockchain-beyond-the-hype-what-is-the-strategic-business-value
BeardPower
20:52Absolutely. Not everything should be transferred to a DLT. Existing technologies offer better approaches than a DLT.
20:52I'm fact, a DLT is not that new: bittortent anyone? ;-)
greggirwin
20:56The big thing to me, in that article, is the detail of target markets and use cases. We're a bit different, but identifying key markets *will* be important in our future.
21:04The first target, which is our primary use case, is blockchain devs. The pain points in this space are substantial. Unfortunately, to solve them we also need to understand them in depth. Put the word out that we need people who have done blockchain dev for some time, know the ins and outs, and suffer that pain. The more we can learn from experts in the trenches, the more mistakes we can avoid, the more pain we can remove, and the better our chances of success.
BeardPower
21:06Yeah. IIRC PwC released a similar paper.
21:08There are some new DLTs, which try to solve the smartcontract issues (languages, security, flexibility, easy of use, etc.), so we also need to look at which DLTs we want to support besides Ethereum.
21:11Maybe it's a good point to contact the people doing research on these topics? There are plenty of DLTs backed by researches/universities and non-profit institutions trying to solve exactly those issues.

greggirwin
00:11We don't have the resources to follow other DLTs right now. Our focus is Ethereum, and EVM compatible chains that we get "for free" with that. We have to gain a foothold and become sustainable.
BeardPower
10:49Of course. Once a basis is established, we can move forward.
x8x
14:37Refreshing high level view on blockchain status:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ja9D0kpksxw
BeardPower
20:57Yeah, some people provide really great videos.

estoniah
13:31Where can I get design spec and docs of C3?
rebolek
13:31They were not released yet.
9214
15:56@estoniah the general gist is outlined in the white paper.

x8x
11:36Nice find from @9214 https://ethreport.info/
9214
11:38Also, if anyone from community is interested in an accessible overview of Ethereum internals and execution model, I highly recommend to check [this](http://takenobu-hs.github.io/downloads/ethereum_evm_illustrated.pdf).
x8x
11:40Nice too, thx!
BeardPower
15:59Great resources.
greggirwin
20:35Yes, thanks!

BeardPower
09:43https://graphics.reuters.com/TECHNOLOGY-BLOCKCHAIN/010070P11GN/index.html
9214
10:44@BeardPower nice intro, but too basic for my taste :wink:
BeardPower
11:49Yeah, it's for starters.
x8x
15:37So if the bloated MyCrypto Wallet is walued 4mio USD, how much is the Red Wallet value? :smiley:
Ethereum wallet MyCrypto just raised $4 million in its ongoing effort to make its product more user-friendly, the startup announced Thursday. https://www.coindesk.com/polychain-leads-ether-wallet-mycryptos-4-million-fundraise/
9214
15:39Heavy gold. Can't breathe.
x8x
15:44Moon soon, but Red Messanger when? https://medium.com/originprotocol/introducing-origin-messaging-decentralized-secure-and-auditable-13c16fe0f13e
BeardPower
15:47Hot, will invest.
15:56@9214 I will leave you for someone not afraid of dying by heavy gold.
9214
15:57Come, little brother... :goat:
rebolek
16:03My friend recently started working for https://www.digitalbank.capital/ ICO who offer "Photon-based Quantum encryption".
9214
16:06ICO to fund Keccak9214 hash implementation for the next Ethereum hard fork. Basically, data just arrives to me in e-mail and I reply with a random string.

Anyone with me? @BeardPower ? @rebolek ?
16:08Oh, my e-mail is a photon-based encrypted Protonmail inbox, of course.
rebolek
16:10@9214 if I understand it correctly, he’s their first programmer.
9214
16:11@rebolek this website looks like a prank, honestly.
x8x
16:12@rebolek
- We are Opening Accounts for everyone
- Immediate Crypto to Fiat Conversions and viceversa
No questions asked?
rebolek
16:22@9214 yeah, it looks really suspicious
16:23OTOH they’ve already paid him something.
16:25Anyway, their photon-based quantum encryption is RSA handshake on Google platform that he’s designing for them. They had the whitepaper without a single line of code, but with multiple paragraphs of marketing nonsense.
9214
16:29@rebolek yeah, that 18px font with double-spacing...
16:30> RSA handshake on Google platform

MVP and KISS principle? :joy:
rebolek
16:34@x8x of course, you don't need KYC, when you have photon based quantum whatever.
16:40Anyway, he's a good guy, great programmer with interest in Red and needs the money. So when they are paying him, why not come up with some useful system. If it's scam, he may use it later for something else.
9214
16:40> interest in Red
> use it later for something else

:suspect:
BeardPower
16:46@9214 but just propose the idea, take the money and run ;-)
16:49Totally unhackable and ultra secure. I'm in... wait....
rebolek

BeardPower
15:07https://nauticus.io/
15:07A candidate for our wallet?

BeardPower
15:36https://www.turnkeylinux.org/blog/secure-bitcoin-transactions#comment-20749

x8x
13:14Annoucement: A minor bug that could have prevented some transactions to go thru has been fixed, if you use the RED Wallet, please download latest from here https://www.red-lang.org/2018/06/red-wallet-tiny-simple-fast-and-secure.html

greggirwin
06:11@rebolek if your friend is good, and can work for ETH, point him our direction!
rebolek
06:15@greggirwin I will ask him, he's mainly web guy, both backend and frontend (mainly backend I believe).
greggirwin
06:15Thanks.

rebolek
11:57Hm, the current price crash looks *totally* organic...
9214
12:05Whoa.
12:15Interesting, it co-occured with presentation of my prototype at local hackathon... :suspect:
rebolek
12:16Prototype of what? Doomsday machine?
9214
12:16@rebolek vestibular biofeedback system.
12:17Looks like ETH/USD exchange rate has a *very* bad vestibular apparatus :smile:
maximvl
12:19I find that quite interesting that "doomsday machine" used as an analogue of ultimate technological device
12:19not hapiness machine, not joy machine
12:19but doomsday
rebolek
12:20It **is** the ultimate machine. There's nothing after it.
maximvl
12:20somehow our mind is set on destruction
viayuve
12:20After fire new life begins
rebolek
12:20Anyway ETH was falling steadily for few days, but this correction - wow...
maximvl
12:21but nothing is not something you can enjoy, be proud or watever
12:21why lean towards it :D
9214
12:21@rebolek it looked quite healthy in the last week.
rebolek
12:23ETH was 300 on 1. 9 and 283 just before the crash. That's 5% fall in 5 days. That's how healthy it was.
ne1uno
12:24weird how close everything tracks BTC
9214
12:25@rebolek I surmise someone just follows Wyckoff.
BeardPower
12:42https://www.newsbtc.com/2018/09/05/hackers-breach-mega-chrome-extension-to-steal-crypto-private-keys/
12:4380% of the non-regulated exchanges' volume is fake volume.
12:45Most of them let you trade with yourself.
12:45Which will create fake volume.
12:46With regulations kicking in, we now see the effect of the "real" value of the crypto-assets.
12:46The most popular exchanges do not make money with trading, but listing fees.
12:49@9214 Wasn't there a recent discussion/claim in red/help, that browsers are secure? ;-)
greggirwin
21:10@BeardPower also found an article about a BTC wallet worth $800M that is scaring people about a possible dump.

BeardPower
08:25@greggirwin Yes. It's "move" caused the dump as well. The wallet is suspected to be from Silkroad or MtGox.
08:29Another "insider" manipulation: https://sludgefeed.com/someone-took-out-74-million-short-on-bitcoin-before-the-drop/

lepinekong_twitter
20:22I already said I could feel a huge trend in WebAssembly: Now WebAssembly could even be The Future of Blockchain Computing :) https://medium.com/zkcapital/webassembly-the-future-of-blockchain-computing-1a0ae28f7e40
BeardPower
20:25Like Java was the future of cross-platform development?
20:25:smile:
9214
20:26@BeardPower
> Wasn't there a recent discussion/claim in red/help, that browsers are secure? ;-)

Yes, and now this bonanza has spread here. Sigh.
BeardPower
20:26I can feel a trend of hype.
20:27Ain't no one!
9214
20:39@BeardPower take all existing issues of Ethereum and multiply them by the wast attack surface that web stack represents, and what we get is a sorry state of current ecosystem, swamped by overbloated Electron wallets and JS spaghetti (including Solidity itself) all over the place, with security holes larger than in Swiss cheese. eWASM, being only a design draft at this point, only adds insult to injury. It's not for web developers to rule over the field that is concerned with legal multi-party agreements and transaction of financial values.
20:52@9214 *vast, duh.
rebolek
20:58yeah, but... HODL! To the Moon!
9214
21:14I don't see how swapping one stack-based machine with another (that is, EVM with WASM) will do any good. IMO, parallelization (e.g. Plasma and sharding) with off-chain computations are more adequate solutions to the problem with Ethereum scalability and inefficency. Even state channels craze has its place.

But what am I talking about? WASM is trendy!
21:14@rebolek when exchange?
rebolek
21:18When exchange? When another bunch of fake Tether hits the market.
9214
21:22At least your hair beautifully flutter in the wind when you ride downhill on the bear market roller-coaster. :haircut:
rebolek
21:24If you have your personal hipster hair-cutter who accepts hipstercoins (HPC) only.
21:25Who raised some 150megaUSD in his ICO (Initial criminal offering) for Hipstercoin.
21:26Or was it personal dentist with Dentacoin?
9214
21:28Initial teeth ripping? :fearful:
21:30Tooth Fairy was the Big Whale who dumped ETH/USD. :shipit:
21:32@9214 It's all [finally](https://youtu.be/FdfGkveC2mY?t=129) making perfect sense, and I'm not gonna miss a moment of it!
rebolek
21:32Dentacoin has nice 100megaUSD marketcap, but HPC is already taken by Happycoin that is rising as mad, +20% from tomorrow.
21:35Happycoin! With a name like that, do you need anything else? Like a businessplan and such nonsense?
9214
21:43@rebolek you sound very convincing. Where should I naively send all my savings to make this bright future (clearly outlined in your quantumly secured whitepaper) come true?
21:45And I expect 1000% return in the first month, no, week!
rebolek
21:48@9214 Let's be realistic here. 100% in a week is given, but for 1000%, you need to wait a month, when Hipstercoin will move to its own blockchain, just like TRON. Right now I'm writing whitepaper using the advanced ctrl+c/ctrl+v method, just like TRON.
21:54Of course, KYC is needed, so send me copy of your ID, so I can sell fakes of it on the dark corners of Ho Chi Min city.
9214
21:56No more words sweetie, just give me the god damn ICO address.
21:56[![photo_2016-05-18_21-30-52.jpg](https://files.gitter.im/red/blockchain/LSK6/thumb/photo_2016-05-18_21-30-52.jpg)](https://files.gitter.im/red/blockchain/LSK6/photo_2016-05-18_21-30-52.jpg)
21:56*now*
rebolek
21:589214.pro is available for 4$, that will sound convincing
21:58Damn, bad window!

BeardPower
08:57@9214 Maybe people love crappy banana software. I mean why would they use the market leader OS or oberhyped and inferior products of the "fruit" company if they didn't?
09:00Sharding, off-chain efforts and what not are nice option, but they cannot solve the design issues of Erhereum. It will never be as fast or as cheap as other solutions, because the foundation and design is keeping it back and cannot be changed.
09:01It's like the legacy bloat of the x86 architecture. You need to dump everything and start from scratch or the failures of the past will haunt you.

gltewalt
01:04Still waiting on lambo
BeardPower
10:16@gltewalt Why do you want to have a Volkswagen? ;-)
gltewalt
12:28Fahrvergnügen
BeardPower
12:32Mercedes: Das Beste oder gar nichts ;-)

BeardPower
11:03https://www.newsbtc.com/2018/09/18/newdex-decentralized-crypto-exchange-robbed-in-new-hacking-attack/
9214
11:06@BeardPower that certainly wouldn't happen on a secure, next-gen OS. :wink:
BeardPower
11:14@9214 Absolutely. :smile:

rebolek
22:38Do you know how hard is it to write crypto exchange?
Not at all.
22:38Script kiddies do it all the time.
22:39Isn't it frightening? Script kiddies in charge of your money?
22:40They can't write an API worth its name and they have your passport photo because of KYC?
22:42I don't want to think about the consequences. I just refuse to accept the reality we live in.

greggirwin
04:32Reality is a terrible, terrible place sometimes.
BeardPower
11:03@rebolek Indeed. A matching engine is very easy to implement. Guess why so many exchanges have wash-trades: because you need more knowledge and skills to implement fair price matching and anti-cheating methods. Most skiddies/exchanges lack of this knowledge/skills. The result is crappy and insecure exchanges.
11:0490% of them WILL be brought down with regulation.
9214
18:28Very nice visual explanation of blockchain aspects.
https://anders.com/blockchain/
18:28Good View-based project candidate? :smirk:
rebolek
18:42nice!
BeardPower
19:15Cool.
21:24https://www.newsbtc.com/2018/09/26/monero-bug-allows-theft-from-crypto-exchanges-will-they-start-delisting-it/
greggirwin
23:00The anders.com link is very nice. We should just link to it in a PR report, maybe along with a few others we think are good resources. If we can do *better* we should, of course. :^)

x8x
18:52Loom Network is a Layer 2 scaling solution for Ethereum that is live in production. It is a network of DPoS sidechains, which allows for highly-scalable games and user-facing DApps while still being backed by the security of Ethereum. https://loomx.io/

chrisijoyah
13:38Hey guys
greggirwin
15:44Hello @chrisijoyah

9214
15:15[Blockchain technology overview](https://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/ir/2018/NIST.IR.8202.pdf) from National Institute of Standards and Technology.
BeardPower
15:17@9214 Coolio!
15:19https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-bots-manipulating-bitcoins-price-1538481600
15:20https://www.financemagnates.com/cryptocurrency/news/are-bitcoin-bots-turning-wild-west-into-westworld/
15:21@9214 Those are the articles I told you about ;-)
9214
15:21@BeardPower yes, they have extremely quality material published on their website. Their guide to ICS security helped me a lot with my thesis back in the day.
15:21@BeardPower thanks!
BeardPower
15:22Yes, great resources.
abdllhygt
19:35what do you guys think about jse coin? (https://jsecoin.com/)
BeardPower
19:50All mining-based crypto tech will be dead and not adopted.
19:50Banks will not invest in something that cost the money.
abdllhygt
19:51it's about browser mining
19:51you can't gpu mining with jse
19:51i put to mywebsite, and i earn from visitors
19:52they mine for me : P
BeardPower
19:56Mining is a loss unless you have access to cheap power.
19:57Thanks for the info. I will not visit your site.
20:01It could be even illegal if you don't inform a visitor of your website about draining his juice.
abdllhygt
20:03@BeardPower a warning show for it, if visitor doesn't click "continue", mining doesn't work
BeardPower
20:09Alright.
20:10It's just insane to waste so much power for mining.

PeterWAWood
04:12Does anybody know if the EVM has any max_ether limit (or is it just max_uint256)?
9214
04:59@PeterWAWood what does yellow paper say?
PeterWAWood
07:11@9214 No mention of maximum values. It just says that "balance is a scalar value".
9214
07:14@PeterWAWood all scalars are unsigned 256 bit integers, so, yeah, this should be the upper bound.
PeterWAWood
07:20@9214 Yes it seems that way. So the biggest ether balance on the current EVM would be (10 ** 256) / 1e18).
07:36Forgot to take away one, it should be (10 ** 256 - 1) / 1e18.

greggirwin
18:52For a very precise doc, a lot of things are left unsaid.

BeardPower
17:15https://dexon.org/
9214
17:19@greggirwin monad is just a monoid in the category of endofunctors, what's the problem?

9214
10:48@x8x :smirk:

BeardPower
10:33Interesting. Sell your body fluids for cash :smile: https://www.onebio.io/
9214
10:34@BeardPower when ISD (Initial Saliva Drooling)?
BeardPower
10:35@9214 Soon, but watch your BlackBerry.
17:21https://www.coindesk.com/sony-builds-digital-rights-management-system-on-a-blockchain/
9214
22:22https://ethereumbook.info/
22:23T - Timing.
BeardPower
22:25Coincidence?

9214
22:09https://ethernaut.zeppelin.solutions/
22:10Smart contract hacking wargame.

BeardPower
08:04https://www.scmp.com/tech/blockchain/article/2169613/china-requires-blockchain-based-information-service-providers

lepinekong_twitter
15:20What is the purpose of the wallet demo ? I thought red was building a dialect which would allow to create #blockchain app easily something like this https://venturebeat.com/2018/10/22/synthetic-minds-raises-5-5-million-to-build-trust-in-blockchain-code/ and I can't really see this coming ;)
15:21I mean for this part: "Our long-term mission is make software creation accessible to everybody, especially non-programmers.” https://venturebeat.com/2018/10/22/synthetic-minds-raises-5-5-million-to-build-trust-in-blockchain-code/
15:25or for another company: "Blockchain Studio raises 1.9 million euros. The digital service company has developed an ad hoc tool, available in SaaS mode, allowing business experts to develop applications based on the blockchain without special technical knowledge." https://www.usine-digitale.fr/article/blockchain-studio-veut-casser-les-barrieres-techniques-de-la-blockchain.N710284
rebolek
15:27"The digital service company has developed an ad hoc tool, available in SaaS mode, allowing business experts to develop applications based on the blockchain" say no more, my bullshit detector already broke.
15:28Anyway, the wallet "demo" is fully functional app.
BeardPower
16:04The usual "experts"....
17:34https://www.coindesk.com/japans-sbi-group-is-building-a-new-crypto-exchange-wallet/
17:38https://www.cryptoglobe.com/latest/2018/10/trezor-wallet-adds-crypto-exchange-support-with-the-help-of-shapeshift-and-changelly/
greggirwin
17:39@lepinekong_twitter did you read the blog announcements about the wallet? Please do, including the original release article.
17:39For those who will be in Prague during the Eth DevCon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--xcsUqT-dE
17:44" Synthetic Minds’ core technology is called program synthesis. This falls under the umbrella of a computer science discipline called formal methods." Formal methods and accessibility are a long way from coming together, and formally verifiable languages and tools are necessarily *extremely* constrained. That can work for some things, but not general software development.
BeardPower
17:48It worked out quite well for seL4 and PONY.
toomasv
18:18@greggirwin Some following videos are even more informative about life in Prague :wink:
rebolek
18:34Ah, Honest Guide! That's by far the best source for information about Prague. Really.
greggirwin
18:40Thanks for the confirmation @rebolek, that's helpful.
rebolek
18:42Thanks to Janek Rubeš, author of Honest Guide, some extremely bad exchanges were removed from Prague after 15+ years. He's doing really great job.

lepinekong_twitter
10:34@greggirwin it's just one company, I posted another one, formal method is just one mean they use SHORT TERM as they said LONG TERM they target NON-programmer as the trend of funding is hugely targeting "low code". Second in Red announcement about blockchain you were talking about DSL for blockchain I can't see an once of it at the moment except if I'm mistaken ;)
greggirwin
16:14It's in development.
rebolek
16:49wow wow wow https://omniexplorer.info/search/3463540ccfb95ed725d41c4d26697a8be2da1734afc90560db4a8f2ba0753b54
9214
16:51@rebolek [money in my pocket](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2Zh69STRuE)
x8x
18:11@rebolek is that a hack or something?
rebolek
18:12@x8x whole Tether is a hack. Their house of cards is probably falling already, so they want to get out what is possible.
BeardPower
18:22@rebolek Didn't we agree to keep silent about our account? ;-)
18:23@x8x No, just the usual Tether pump and dump.
rebolek
18:26And half a billion dollars is gone https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/tether/
BeardPower
18:28@rebolek Welcome to the world of crypto scam ;-)
x8x
18:29@BeardPower Ever heard of https://www.algorand.com/ ?
rebolek
18:29It's fine, it's self-regulated. No banksters, you know.
BeardPower
18:32@x8x I think I remember them. Every day there are 5 new "projects" popping up. It's easy to lose traction.
18:33@rebolek If you look through pink glasses, yes.
18:35@rebolek Aaand it's gone. https://www.omniexplorer.info/tx/76cc7c991e61749d7f4bf6cc7fec63c2d0286c891e386d9c96b66aa939683859
18:40https://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/9qzz1u/my_account_hacked_using_2fa_brute_force_11_700/
x8x
18:41@BeardPower What's "Revoke Property Tokens" ?
rebolek
18:41@BeardPower yes, yes, I know.
BeardPower
18:42@x8x It's to destroy Tether.
18:43Burning "money".
18:43Tether can print and burn money.
rebolek
18:43> After 25,000 trials the attack was successfully completed.

Hm, that's perfectly normal behavior and should rise some red flags.
9214
18:43Chit-chat, anyone?
BeardPower
18:44@rebolek For them it was.
18:44@9214 Open the sticker faucet!
19:28https://bcfocus.com/news/tether-gained-30-million-from-coin-burn-ran-neuner/25449/

x8x
20:42Let see if that works tomorrow https://devcon4.tv

x8x
11:28Some sessions about to start
rebolek
11:56let's hope it's better conference than https://ftalphaville.ft.com/2018/10/31/1540969202000/Crypto-conferences-ain-t-what-they-used-to-be/

BeardPower
13:15https://decryptmedia.com/2018/10/10/sec-tightens-the-noose-on-ico-funded-startups/

zhaofu_unlv_twitter
00:54DO WE HAVE A COIN?
9214
00:59@zhaofu_unlv_twitter no, but we have an utility token. If you have any questions about it, please ask them in the [RED Telegram group](https://t.me/redofficial) .
zhaofu_unlv_twitter
01:05thank you
9214
01:06You're welcome.

BeardPower
11:12https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption
11:12It needs to stop.
rebolek
11:19Scary numbers...
11:21If we could measure bitcoin's electricity consumption by the length of smoke going from powerplant's chimney, the smoke will go **to the Moon!**
BeardPower
11:22Totally absurd.
15:51https://www.marketscreener.com/news/SEC-Charges-EtherDelta-Founder-With-Operating-an-Unregistered-Exchange--27572440/

loziniak
20:19Hello. Where can I get information about the state of Red/C3? I've just been contracted for a development of a smart contract token on Ethereum platform and would like to use Red to do it :-)
9214
20:22@loziniak Red/C3 will hit public alpha in the next couple of weeks or so, after that Red team may publish some design documents, if time permits. We'd like to involve community in a tight feedback loop and carefully evaluate all features, so, get involved if you want.
loziniak
20:26Ok, so seems that this could be achievable :-) Can't wait, lots of learning about smart contracts in general anyway. Fingers crossed!
20:27Thanks :-)

rebolek
19:50What a wild ride!

x8x
07:22I nice recap of ETH Devcon4 for those that didn't make it https://davidburela.wordpress.com/2018/10/31/devcon-4-report-day-1-core-tool-updates/
pekr
15:59Those guys don't know about Red yet? :-)

x8x
18:4010 Rules for the Secure Use of Cryptocurrency Hardware Wallets
https://blog.trailofbits.com/2018/11/27/10-rules-for-the-secure-use-of-cryptocurrency-hardware-wallets/
20:16DevCon4 - State of Security of Smart Contracts - discussion about Ethereum’s current security posture. What was the biggest change in Ethereum security in the last year? How is securing smart contracts different from traditional systems? How should we think about the utility of bug bounties?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjQZFeqOgro
20:16There is probably good money to be made in consulting/auditing/securing Smart Contracts, let see if and how Red and C3 will help :smiley:
BeardPower
20:41Heavy gold!
9214
20:41Can't breathe.
gltewalt
22:57I need a new Honda, so that could be a good angle
9214
22:58[Do you need a new Honda?](https://brucemacd.github.io/You-Dont-Need-A-Blockchain/)
gltewalt
22:58Needz
x8x
22:58:thumbsup:
gltewalt
23:02Blockchain these suckers. At least they’d know who last had a scooter. When you run out of gas the breaks could lock on.

https://www.bird.co/
BeardPower
23:26https://blog.iota.org/coordinator-part-1-the-path-to-coordicide-ee4148a8db08

BeardPower
14:29People ARE crazy:
https://www.financemagnates.com/cryptocurrency/news/south-africa-man-tortured-for-bitcoins-in-intensive-care/

x8x
01:27Devcon4 Videos and Pictures Released!
https://blog.ethereum.org/2018/12/10/devcon4-videos-and-pictures-released/
9214
01:55Any recommended talks?

9214
18:31@9214 *shrug*

BeardPower
11:44https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-06-30/is-bitcoin-creator-writing-a-book-cryptic-note-indicates-yes?srnd=cryptocurrencies
22:24https://www.ccn.com/germanys-second-largest-stock-exchange-is-launching-a-zero-fee-crypto-exchange/

BeardPower
00:56https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mII9NZ8MMVM

christopherbclark
13:08👋

9214
18:18A great presentation about hardware wallet hacking:
https://wallet.fail/